• Jeremy

    One thing that sucks, if we had just beaten Buffalo and the 1-8 Giants, we’d be holding the last wild card spot and be a full one game up, with a pretty easy schedule the rest of the way, and only 1 game behind the chiefs for the division.

    But as the saying goes, “if I had wheels I’d be a wagon”

    • RSH

      And Jacksonville is in the running for the second seed in the AFC. https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-playoff-picture-week-10-updates-how-the-jaguars-could-end-up-with-playoff-bye/.

      One of the Patriots and Steelers — who play each other — will likely find their way into the top seed in the AFC. But Jacksonville is a threat as well. Their schedule is cake going forward. Next week they get the Browns (0-9) in Cleveland, followed by the Cardinals (3-6) in Arizona. Then they come home for three games, hosting the Colts (3-7), Seahawks (6-3) and Texans (3-6). They close with road games against the 49ers(1-8) and the Titans (6-3).

      • Royalwithcheese

        What a world.

        • Steven_Searls

          Yeah but like Houston they will lose in the Divisional round if not the WC round.

        • ohiobronco

          Jacksonville vs. Rams/Saints would be a SB I could feel good about. Could Brunell just come out of retirement for one game to take out NE?

    • ohiobronco

      The Broncos have 2 one score wins and no one score losses. They are closer to 1-8 than they are to 5-4.

      • Jeremy

        Fair. The Bills game technically wasn’t a 1 score game but it felt like one.

        • ohiobronco

          I’m not trying to be a downer. Teams can turn around quickly and they could potentially be good next year with a few key moves. However, this has been a historically bad stretch by Broncos standards. The 2010 team only had consecutive double digit losses once and that was the two weeks after McDaniels was fired.

          • Jeremy

            No doubt. I also think this is only the fifth time since the merger we’ve had a losing streak of at least 5 games.

            And we’ve only had 4 other streaks of at least 3 games with double digit losses and we are at 5 already.

  • RSH
    • Sparks

      Dammit. They must have read my post yesterday advocating picking him up and cutting McKenzie. 🙂

      • Jeremy

        Lose lips sink ships

  • RSH
    • Nick

      The Bucs seem to be hitting the reset button on the coach more frequently than perhaps they should.

      And it’s a shame that Gruden apparently does not have as good rapport with Sean McDonough as he did with Tirico, because I really like McDonough as a broadcaster.

      • They probably shouldn’t have hired Lovie Smith and most certainly shouldn’t have panicked and fired him just because other teams asked to interview OC Dirk Koetter. Isn’t that the same mistake they made when hiring Raheem Morris?

      • Yahmule

        People are calling for our fourth coach in five years. I don’t think they realize the negative impact that has a franchise in the long run. Coming here as a head coach means having less authority than you get in most other places, but more blame when things go wrong.

    • Yahmule

      Well, Jon Gruden and Bill Cowher were linked to practically every job opening for years after they retired. People have finally stopped doing that. If Gruden doesn’t actually accept a position somewhere, it’s safe to say he just misses hearing his name on ESPN.

  • RSH
    • Sparks

      That’s nice of his brothers to show up to the game. I can’t think of anyone else fan enough to follow him to 3 destinations.

    • Yahmule

      Jay notices, is briefly amused, then remembers they’re just his lowly fans and mentally dismisses them forever.

  • RSH
    • Nick

      Reminds me of the guy who wore a Lawrence Phillips Rams jersey to the draft.

    • ohiobronco

      Assuming no hoax, should he have been denied entry or ejected?

      • Nick

        May have been easy to miss on entry, and security guards have all other portions of their job they’re focused on. Another fan would have likely needed to alert security to it, and the odds are also good that many of the guards may not know who Rae Carruth is.

        • ohiobronco

          All true. I wonder if there would have been grounds if someone had seriously complained.

          • Yahmule

            It might be in extremely poor taste, but I don’t think it’s cause for ejection. I would hope the disapproval of his fellow fans would be enough to make him reconsider something like this in the future, but if he’s not actually belligerent to anybody, it would be hard to run him. Feels like a slippery slope.

          • ohiobronco

            That’s all fair. I was just kind of thinking it out. It struck me as deliberately antagonistic and belligerent and there is probably language about inappropriate/offensive attire.

          • Yahmule

            I definitely agree that It’s a shitty thing to do. Incredibly rare to see anybody ever wearing an OJ jersey in public.

            http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/11/01/19/45E84BEF00000578-5040227-Loose_Juice_OJ_Simpson_wore_a_Buffalo_Bills_jersey_with_his_old_-a-48_1509564026539.jpg

    • Tyler

      Weren’t Hernandez jerseys in high demand on Ebay after he was arrested? Some people think murder is cool I guess.

      • Yahmule

        Some people just want attention. I know a guy who was going on a road trip of hockey arenas in western Canada. This was right after Steve Moore almost got killed on the ice (to the extreme indifference of virtually 100% of the NHL), so my buddy figures now is the perfect time to plunk down for a Todd Bertuzzi jersey.

        • WhoShotBobbyHumphrey

          Fuck Todd Bertuzzi!

  • Royalwithcheese
    • Yahmule

      You didn’t need a chart to sense this was true, but man, that’s really stark evidence of the conference imbalance.

    • Sparks

      I think you could just take a look at the QB talent to see why this is (in no particular order).
      NFC
      – Dak
      – Wentz
      – Cousins
      – Goff
      – Rodgers (hurt)
      – Brees
      – Ryan
      – Wilson
      – Stafford
      – Cam
      AFC
      – Watson (hurt)
      – Luck (hurt)
      – Brady
      – Smith
      – Roethlisberger
      – Carr
      – Rivers
      There are others that we could probably add to either list but if I was building a dream team of QB’s, I’d start with the NFC’s list way before I got into the AFC’s list.

    • gobroncos

      Shit, the AFC West point differential is JUST the Broncos in the last two games.

      Remember when the AFC West was supposed to be one of the toughest divisions in football?

      Pepperidge farms remembers.

    • MattR

      The difference between conferences almost doubled this past weekend (From 107 to 203 total points) The majority of that were the 66 points that the NFC South gained (teams won by 37, 24 and 5 over AFC East teams – and they also had a win of 20 pts but that was against another NFC opponent)

  • Royalwithcheese
    • Nick

      Short fields from turnovers.

      • Steven_Searls

        Playing without a lead too

      • DCJ1

        Less aggressive play calling that doesn’t generate as much pressure on the QB. Justin Simmons’s sack on Brady took 3.56 seconds to develop. Only five Denver sacks are in the top 200 fastest sacks through week 10. Coverage breaks down, and the QBs have time to get through their progressions.

        • Yahmule

          Nobody play calls aggressively when they’re down by more than 10 points.

          • DCJ1

            However, this is a pattern that has held true for both the wins and the losses. In the first four games, their fastest sack times were >3.16, >3.54, 3.41 (Miller), and 3.02 (Miller). Those are very slow sacks.

        • WhoShotBobbyHumphrey

          Really? Ouch! Far cry from 2015 when the rush was almost instantaneous to the QB. People would bitch last year about how we would always give up points on the first drive of the game. I’m sure this was usually contributed to us being more aggressive, and not mixing up our play calling. I think being aggressive, though at times makes you vulnerable, also wears down an opposing offense, eventually creating mistakes, and turnovers. The thing I liked about Wade Phillips was that he was always aggressive, and our team definitely misses that.

    • Yahmule

      What a stupid fuck.

      • Jeremy

        Do you still consider the Broncos defense elite?

        • Yahmule

          Who would you trade them for straight up?

          • Jeremy

            Definitely not well studied on the rest of the league but rams and jags would seem like good candidates. I have no idea how they are built moving forward.

          • Yahmule

            So, possibly two teams? That means the Broncos are better than more than 90% of the defenses in the league off the top of your head?

            Not bad for a team that lost Malik, Trevathan, Ware, Webster and Ward and only replaced them with Domata Peko.

          • Royalwithcheese

            I am really, really hoping the Jags release Malik. If they could bring him back and add a rotational OLB who can actually rush the passer (there are many expected to be available), this defense could get back to being absolutely dominant, as opposed to their mere excellence right now.

          • Sparks

            You’re not sold on Edibali? He did have that one assist on a tackle waaaay back in the Cowboys game to hang his hat on. 🙂

          • BlackKnigh

            Was that this year?? Sorry – blew the sarcasm font.

          • Sparks

            Yep, feel kinda bad calling him out, right before he got cut.

          • BlackKnigh

            I think my sarcasm was misplaced too. I wish him well wherever he ends up.

          • Sparks

            Agreed. Just not on the Broncos. I agree with what you said above as well. It’s time to get Walker some snaps. He hasn’t done anything to date but maybe working up a lather on the field will produce some results. I hope they don’t retard his progress by forcing him into the OLB slot. I don’t know if that would be the best use of his talents. This is a guy who had 16 sacks last year with his hand in the dirt. Reminds me of when they tried to put Dumervil in an OLB slot and it just didn’t suit his talents, regardless of being the size and having the speed of your OLB, rather than DE. We could use some help getting after the QB.

          • RSH

            I have to disagree with you about Dumervil, Sparks. Dumervil has had his best season as pro, including with the Broncos, as a 3-4 rush linebacker. https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DumeEl20.htm

          • Sparks

            That’s fair. I just remember he seemed to struggle with the other duties an OLB is supposed to do and was best at rushing the passer with his hand in the dirt. Maybe Robert Ayers would have been a better example.

          • BlackKnigh

            Good points! Walker did play some OLB in college – but you are right – he was very good with his hand in the dirt.
            I agree about Dumervil. Ayers was the same – a DE/DT at Tennessee forced into playing OLB. I wonder if McDaniels had to do it over again in Denver – he would have kept the 4-3 and worked from there. Speculation I know….

          • Jeremy

            You are putting a lot of words in my mouth. I’m not trying to fight you. Was just a simple question about where you think the defense stands right now. Do you think they are the third best defense in the league?

          • Yahmule

            It was a simple answer, Jeremy. What the fuck do you want from me, man?

          • Jeremy

            I don’t know what you are so pissed off about. Was asking for a clarification to try and have some honest discussion about what we think of the current state of the broncos defense.

            Since you asked, I was looking for a “yes I still think they are elite for these reasons…” or “no I don’t think they are elite for these reasons…” or something along those lines.

          • Yahmule

            I’m not pissed off. I’m used to this passive aggressive nonsense from you by now. You’re very dedicated to concern trolling and that’s the current impediment to honest conversations between us.

            I was clarifying your statement. You named two teams off the top of your head that you think are better than the Broncos defense. Why this makes me come off to you like Russell Crowe on a three day drunk is your problem, not mine.

          • WhoShotBobbyHumphrey

            “Concern Trolling”. I had to Google that one, and when I read it , the first person that came mind was our old friend Rhett! I wonder where he went?!

          • RSH

            He’s on Twitter @RhettRothberg.

          • WhoShotBobbyHumphrey

            I don’t do the Twitter. This is the only “social media” I partake in. Wait…I have a Linkdin.

          • FarAwayBroncoFan

            No one. I think the talent is still elite for the most part (inside LB, outside pashrush opposite Von notwithstanding) But, they’re not playing that way lately.

        • DCJ1

          My 85 year old uncle bought a BMW 428i. It is still a very fast car despite the fact he only drives it at 25 MPH.

        • SterlingMalloryArcher

          4th overall, 4th against the run and 8th against the pass. Points definitely don’t tell the whole story here. The defense has again played more than well enough to win games this year.

          • Jeremy

            In my opinion it’s the tale of two defenses. Through the kc game they were still playing at a very high level, albeit probably a step back from the past two years and forcing turnovers and sacks at a pedestrian level. The past two weeks have seemed much more troubling and that there slide has gotten much worse.

            On the 6 drives that started inside the nwe 25 (ie normal field position), they gave up 3 tds and 1 fg. That is 4 points per drive and extrapolates to over 30 points over most full games. (i figure you are going to face more than 8 such drives per game). Against Philly it was similar where they gave up too many long drives, even when the offense/st gave the defense good field position.

            I don’t know how much weight to give those two performances compared to the rest of the season, especially since they were against two of the leagues top offenses. Hopefully they bounce back this week strong against a horrendous offense in Cincinnati and they can build off of that. If not my concern will increase greatly

        • Sparks

          If they are being compared to the 2015 Broncos defense, maybe not, but by most any other 2017 metrics, I’d say they are still elite.

          • FarAwayBroncoFan

            An elite defense holds teams to FGs after a turnover. We used to do that regularly. Not lately. We should be elite, but….

        • Per metrics, the Broncos have had a good-to-great defense this year. One thing to keep in mind is that field position matters, too. The Patriots game was the perfect example — of the 27 points New England scored, seven were directly the responsibility of special teams while 10 came because special teams miscues forced the defense to defend the short field.

          So seven weren’t on the defense and 10 might not have been scored if special teams had done its job.

          • Jeremy

            Of the 6 drives the Patriots started in at their own 25 or further back (ie average to bad field position), the defense gave up 3 TDs and a FG. One of the two where they did get a stop, Brian Hoyer was in.

            That simply isn’t good.

            I’m curious to see the rankings when dvoa comes out today but I’m guessing they’ll fall to around 10th (they are at 6th currently).

          • Jeremy

            For comparison, the last 3 times we played them the defense faced 25 such drives and gave up only 9 points.

          • Royalwithcheese

            Damn. Talk about falling off a cliff. Was Gronk playing in any of those previous 3?

          • Jeremy

            Not 2016 I think. He played in 2015 playoffs. Cameras showed him huffing and puffing on the sideline because apparently altitude got to him (or our defense wore him out). He Played 2015 regular season and Ward knocked him out very late in the game

          • BlackKnigh

            I wonder what those stats would have been if we would have put up a ferocious pass rush. I saw Brady had a ton of time to throw and he picked the defense apart.

    • Jeremy

      Think it’s a combination of everything. Losing ward, ware and Wade. Losing Kubiak. Injuries. Not playing with a lead. Frustration of poor offensive performance. Poor field position. Regression to the mean. Tough schedule.

      • InSiemianWeTrust

        Jeremy, any interest in correlating top 1/3 ST with W/L ratio? Lots of confounders,but am curious.

        • Jeremy

          What exactly do you mean? Correlating whether a team was in the top third of st by DVOA and their winning percentage? I could maybe do that tonight going back a few years. If I was collecting the data, I’d also correlate st dvoa and winning percentage straight up.

          • InSiemianWeTrust

            Yep, basically! Would be interested to see if it was also independent of offensive and defensive play. Or perhaps the magnitude of the driver of correlation between each phase in of the game and winning.

      • BlackKnigh

        We also lost Joe DeCamillis – the ST coach – who acted as HC for a game and had been a HC before.

        • RSH

          Whose special teams have thus far been anything but special in Jacksonville. https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-2017-nfl-mid-season-special-team-rankings

          26. JACKSONVILLE JAGUARS
          (previous ranking: 30)

          While the Jaguars have had an impressive start to their season, special teams have largely not been a part of that rebound. Against the Rams they surrendered two special teams touchdowns, putting the Jaguars offense too far behind the eight ball with their limited offense. If Josh Lambo (perfect on his first 10 total kicks since joining the Jags) can continue his strong start for his new team, things might turn around nicely for Jacksonville’s special teams.

          • BlackKnigh

            Thank you, RSH. Guess it wasn’t that big a loss after all. I hadn’t kept up with where he landed.
            As we saw on Sunday – ST is one part of the game that can make or break you. We dug a huge hole for ourselves. Otherwise it would have been more of a battle.

    • gobroncos

      How many of those points were allowed by special teams and the offense? I can think of 4 TD’s off the top of my head. That’s 28 points? Was that taken into account?

      • DCJ1

        This is a Les Shapiro tweet. I’d be shocked if he wasn’t just adding up scores. For what is worth, Denver is still #6 in defensive DVOA despite all the short fields.

        • gobroncos

          Yeah, Denver is still #4 in terms of yards per game. So they’re not exactly allowing a lot of long drives. It’s a shame our Special Teams and Offense are so bad. Like most of us here believe. Limit the turnovers and keep ST’s from costing us games and we’d probably have a few more wins and still be in contention for the playoffs.

        • Jeremy

          Worth noting 6th is before the Patriots game. Updated rankings will be out tonight.

          Also worth noting we were 2nd before the Philly game. Hopefully moving forward we look more like that pre eagles game defense and less like the one that’s showed up the past two weeks

  • CFD1983

    So the loss of Wade Phillips to the Rams has had a huge impact on our Defense IMO. Look at what he had done for the Rams in a short time. Wade was a leader and the defense had respect and admiration for him and played hard for him, not taking anything away from our current staff I think Wade had a way of bringing them together.

    • The Color Orange

      But ironically the whispers were that Wade was dividing the locker room. That’s why Elway needed to bring in a leader of men.

      • CFD1983

        And we see how that worked out!

  • Steven_Searls

    “The Broncos’ 21 turnovers have led to 78 points by opponents, the most in the NFL by a wide margin. (Chicago and Washington are tied for second with 60 points from giveaways.)”

    http://www.denverpost.com/2017/11/13/broncos-simpler-game-plan/

  • PFT’s power rankings: “Broncos (3-6; No. 26): John Fox got fired for a lot less than this.”

    • InSiemianWeTrust

      It’s good that the 49ners are not having success. Or else we’d have to deal with more insufferable talk about picking the wrong coach. When truly, we have a QB problem.

      • Maybe the guy Denver should have picked is Dave Toub. His unit is once again among the NFL’s best. Since he arrived in KC in 2013, the Chiefs haven’t given up a singe KR or PR TD.

        • InSiemianWeTrust

          Like the sound of that.

        • RSH

          No guarantee that would have made any difference. We could be sitting here bitching about how irresponsibly it was of John Elway to make a guy with no head coaching or offensive or defensive coordinator experience a head coach.

          • I just said… maybe. His track record of success is remarkable though. Would that translate with his responsibilities increasing to overseeing the whole operation and not just a unit, who knows… but his team’s ST play is almost always the best and the guy deserves a shot.

          • Sparks

            Players have an uncanny way of making their coaches look better. Not saying Toub hasn’t earned his accolades but it sure helps when you have a Hill returning kicks for you.

          • And Hester. But he had a hand in identifying those two as players he wanted for his unit. I’m focusing more on the coverage because the fact that they don’t give up returns speaks volumes about the commitment and attention to detail he gets from his guys.

          • RSH

            And Brian Mitchell in Philadelphia.

          • gobroncos

            Harbaugh was the same, and he’s done pretty well.

          • RSH

            Sure, and he is pretty much the only one. My point is that hiring Toub versus Joseph may have made no difference. It may have. We don’t know. It’s pure speculation and hypothetical.

      • Tyler

        Problems aren’t mutually exclusive. We had a QB problem last year and our team didn’t look this bad. I’m not ready to give up on Joseph but he doesn’t get a pass just because there are problems elsewhere.

      • The Color Orange

        The two situations are not remotely comparable. Vance Joseph took over a 9-win team; Shanahan took over a 2-win team. And the QB that Shanahan picked in the fifth round looks better than the QBs John Elway picked. And the 49ers took care of business versus the Giants, something that the Broncos could not do.

        • InSiemianWeTrust

          My point is not that VJ is a godsend. It’s rather that we cant judge him or Shanahan quite yet; and the fact that Shanatan’s team also isn’t doing well is a welcome buffer against unjustified comparisons.

      • SterlingMalloryArcher

        No doubt we have a QB problem, but I still would have preferred to see Kyle Shanahan become the coach here. For all the hype around Joseph’s ability to lead men / rally the troops, he hasn’t seemed to figure out how to do that yet. And I’m always partial to the X’s and O’s technician over guys with vague intangibles like “leadership.”

        • InSiemianWeTrust

          Should have interviewed McVay!

          • RSH

            And if he had floundered, Broncos’ fans would be bitching about hiring another young, McDouche or whatever McInsult name they could come up with.

          • InSiemianWeTrust

            Of course. But we didn’t even bring in the dude to kick the tires. Similar to the draft, Elways “guy” was fixed.

          • QDoc

            McNoVay?
            McGoAvay?
            McVayBad?

            Sorry. Couldn’t help myself.

          • InSiemianWeTrust

            Also the outdated, boorish homophobic call.

          • Lonestar47

            Homophobic? Please explain.

          • RSH

            Thank you for illustrating my point so beautifully, QD! 🙂

          • Yahmule

            People can be so juvenile. Mocking a man’s name when he wears a perfectly mockable wispy pubic hair mustache.

          • SterlingMalloryArcher

            McOyVey?

          • SterlingMalloryArcher

            That would have been highly annoying, no doubt, but I don’t buy into the idea that young men cannot be effective leaders. Somebody should try telling Zuckerberg he’s too young to be in charge.

          • RSH

            I agree, but the vast majority of Broncos’ fans are not as reasonable or rational as you are, SMA.

          • Yahmule

            The Russians certainly used him to great effectiveness, but he has since expressed sadness about it.

          • SterlingMalloryArcher

            I don’t know if he was responsible for making sure gullible idiots don’t have their opinions swayed by foreign interests. That’s kind of like blaming Alexander Graham Bell for telemarketers.

          • Yahmule

            Jeff Zucker from CNN had basically the same attitude. My company is getting rich, so who cares if we’re helping foreign interests undermine the most sacred institution of our democracy? Zuckerberg got really chummy with a Russian oligarch when he was financing Facebook and during the election we have ads comparing Clinton to Satan. Or we have Facebook pages like Being Patriotic, which did nothing but sow hatred between people who uncritically support the police and people who are vocal about violence by police against black communities. That account and hundreds more like it came straight from the Kremlin.

            12 million Americans believe lizard people run the government. I don’t think being cavalier about the manipulation of the uninformed by a country actively at cyber war against us is the safest approach.

          • BlackKnigh

            I think that many Russian oligarchs thought that Clinton would find a way to go to war with Russia. She certainly was talking trash about them. They may have thought that they were being patriotic as a war with the US would almost insure the use of nuclear weapons. The US has much more conventional weapons than Russia has. 10 times the defense budget. Russia would use nuclear weapons to defend their homeland. I voted for Clinton – but I consider her power hungry, arrogant and stupid. Sorry to get so political so quickly. She is probably a lizard too.

          • While it’s fair to say that VJ has issues as a head coach, the worst thing a team can do is over-rely on veteran coaches to get everything done. At some point, you have to give a first-time head coaching candidate a chance.

            There is, of course, an argument to be made that some head coaches do better in their second stints than their first.

            But if Broncos fans are insisting on somebody “proven,” they’re going to find that’s not going to generate the results they think it will. For example, just ask Rams fans about Jeff Fisher.

      • Lonestar47

        Well now let’s see.

        49s have been a dumpster fire for a very long time. Got a new head coach and Rookie no experience GM.

        Vs Denver who has been a top franchise since Elway came to town. Who now has a new HC. Has been a leader on defense almost since Miller came to town.

        Hardly see the comparisons other than they both suck.

    • RSH

      Under such logic, John Fox should have been fired when the Broncos lost to Detroit at home 45-10 in Week 8 of the 2011 season. The Broncos were shellacked four weeks earlier at Green Bay 49 to 23.

    • DCJ1
  • InSiemianWeTrust
    • RSH

      Finally. We have figured out what is wrong with the defense. It has developed Type II Diabetes!

      • InSiemianWeTrust

        God damn high fructose corn syrup.

    • Tyler

      Not surprising. The importance of coaching seems to be underplayed pretty often. When we had Richard smith here we were frequently turning no-name linebackers into high quality starters. Kollar has done an amazing job with our D-line.

      Now we are feeling the absence of our coordinator who coached an all-time great D.

      • Some guys make great position coaches not great coordinators (see Smith for sure, perhaps Woods). Some guys make good coordinators not great head coaches (very long list).

  • InSiemianWeTrust

    Man I wish the Saints weren’t playoff contenders. Now it’s mutually beneficial for the team and player to have Bree’s stay next year.

    • QDoc

      Did VJ attend the Trump School of Observation?

    • ohiobronco

      The Brocks are like a protected species.

    • Jason

      I don’t necessarily have a problem with that approach. Just like players the game will slow down for coaches also and they can make better and more effective adjustments, as well as learn to teach and help players execute better

      • Yahmule

        Also, Joseph doesn’t have the authority to fire anyone, so undermining the man publicly is self defeating.

        • What do you mean? He doesn’t have the ability to fire his ST coordinator?!

          RSH, did Vic Lombardi ever respond to your tweet about providing backup for his claim that VJ wasn’t permitted to hire his staff?

          • RSH

            Of course, he did not.

        • Forrest Trump

          I doubt B. Olivio had the unilateral authority to keep trotting I McK out there, either.

          • All things considered, VJ and Olivo should have had a different plan – someone other than MacKenzie – for PR going in the Pats game.

          • Forrest Trump

            In hindsight, I guess. But when your FO favors a long look at draftees, and with McK having a handful of near breaks– including one last week– I expected nothing else. In fact, I don’t recall calls for McK’s head until it went south.

            Coaching is tough as shit.

        • Jason

          Unfortunately it seems a large portion of the fan base wants players and coaches to publicly trash each other. I’m willing to bet some of the player/coaches meetings have been rather scathing.

  • The bar was set pretty low by prior few weeks, but did the offense really get better vs. Pats? Os completed 55% of passes, a figure aided by a couple great catches, and had another bad INT. Left yardage on the table in run game… Booker is a drive killer. CJ (5.4 YPC) and JC (4.8 YPC) struggle to find a rhythm being take out so often for a far less effective Booker (3.0 YPC).

    https://twitter.com/NickiJhabvala/status/930161194765185024

    • SterlingMalloryArcher

      I thought it’s been objectively better with Osweiler. Siemian’s last 5 starts generated 12.2 ppg on offense. Osweiler’s 2 starts have resulted in 19.5. Not great, but markedly better.

      • ohiobronco

        The defense also gave up more points resulting in the offense facing softer defenses. Also, NE’s defense was weaker than some other defenses they have faced. I actually think Siemian and Osweiler are pretty similar. The one that’s better is the one you catch on a better day.

        • Yahmule

          I think one difference that favors the bigger man is he seems to be a bit more durable. I still feel like Siemian’s biggest weakness remains his susceptibility to small performance sapping injuries.

        • gobroncos

          Correction, the SPECIAL TEAMS has given up more points.

      • Sparks

        One of the TD’s in Philly was defensive so it’d be 16 for Os instead of 19.5, but still better pointswise. I agree with ohiobronco in that there are other factors that could be weighed in as well. I’d add that our kicker hasn’t missed a kick since Os has been in. TS wasn’t getting that same run support from McManus earlier in the year.

      • Yahmule

        He looked way better than I expected after a long layoff and the confidence shattering experiences in Houston and Cleveland. I’m cautiously optimistic about him again. Middle pack NFL starter doesn’t seem hopelessly out of reach now. He’s still only a week shy of 27 years old.

      • Laces Out

        Less eggregious turnovers and pocket presence much improved. Ball is getting out or thrown away but itd be nice ti have help at TE and slot.

  • Jason

    It’s pretty easy to rail on all of the coaches and make claims they are unqualified and unfit. However, just like players coaches have a period of development. Look no further than the evil one Bill Belichick. I am willing to bet he learned an awful lot about coaching during his tenure in Cleveland. Unfortunately for Cleveland, they didn’t have the patience to stick with them and reap the fruits of what he learned.

    I am not in any way suggesting that any of the Denver coaches are the equivalent of Bill. However, I would like to see this exhibit patience and allow them to learn from their mistakes, which may not always happen on the timeline we as fans would like to see. This is a time when they will learn a lot about leadership, adjustments, and utilizing personnel to their fullest. Not every approach is going to succeed the first time and sometimes people have to learn the hard way by repeating the same shit over a few times before it really sinks in.

    • RSH

      Excellent post. Belichick went 6-10, 7-9, and 7-9 in his first three seasons as an NFL head coach. Andy Reid went 5-11 in his first season as an NFL head coach. Bill Parcells went 3-12-1 in his first season as an NFL head coach.

      Of course this does not mean that Vance Joseph is going to turn out be like Belichick, Reid, or Parcells. There are plenty of first-year head coaches who had poor records and never ended up being good head coaches. I am, however, for exercising some patience with Joseph and this coaching staff for this season and into next season, with the hope of seeing marked improvements. I am adamantly opposed to the quick trigger firing and hiring cycle.

      • Yahmule

        Joe Gibbs is another good example. Began his NFL coaching career 0-5 in 1981 and his first four losses were beatings from the other four teams in the NFC East. Managed to beat a Vince Evans led Bears team and then lost again. He was sitting @ 1-6 and people were calling for his job. He rallied the team and they went 33-6 over the next 2.5 seasons, including two conference championships their first Super Bowl victory.

        https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/was/1981.htm

      • G Mik

        Let’s look at the records of those teams the season before they arrived. Browns were 3-10, Eagles, 3-13, Giants 4-5. None had won a SB or come close 2 years prior and did not have the talent we have.

        This is by far the worst coached team I have seen in years. The mistakes this team routinely makes show just how undisciplined they are. Having McKenzie return punts the last 2-3 weeks is absolutely unforgivable. ST as a unit has cost this team more in 9 games than I can imagine in a season.

        I’m not ready to give up on Vance but it doesn’t look good. He should have benched Trevor before he did (Chargers at half time or after that 1st series in 2nd half) and again the McKenzie fiasco is almost unbelievable. Do you think any of the coaches you mentioned would have had him returning punts after the 3rd muff? Belichick would have benched him after 1. Maybe he’ll grow from year 1 to year 2, but if that growth isn’t like a hockey stick there is no way he will last unless the Broncos miraculously sign a franchise QB to cover up all of his misgivings.

    • CFD1983

      We have gone from a top defense to one giving up a lot of points, most of the same players, different coaches.. look at the coaches we have hired.. there should not be any development time for this staff, it is packed with former HCs and experance, is it players or leadership

      • Jason

        The defense was already showing itself as exploitable last year. I have a hard time putting that all on coaches this year.

        There certainly appear to be schematic issues that are hindering the defense this year, however I have no problem with the new coordinator trying stuff that has not been done in the past. This obviously has a risk reward approach to it and a learning curve as they figure out what works and what personnel can be used in certain ways.

        • Yahmule

          Nobody remembers Oakland, Tennessee and Kansas City running the ball down our throats in losses last season.

          • Jason

            The parity promoted by salary caps, drafting etc pretty much assures that getting better in one area will eventually make you weaker in another.

      • Forrest Trump

        I think D. Stewart’s marked decline in coverage is a huge issue. Derek Wolf isn’t making plays at all, either.

        There is a lot of blame to spread around.

        • Royalwithcheese

          Wolfe definitely sacrificed some of his quickness when he bulked up. You can see it when he’s rushing the passer.

        • CFD1983

          So how about accountability

          • Forrest Trump

            I think Stewart is aging and Wolfe is hurt, so…

    • gobroncos

      I wish Bill Belicheat had stayed in Cleveland. I don’t think that him selling his soul to the devil would have over come the curse that has been bestowed upon the Browns. Some magic is just too powerful.

  • Nick
    • DCJ1

      Wee bit of hyperbole there, Ian. He was a fifth round draft pick who was cut by the Bills and hanging out on the Broncos practice squad. Not sure he’ll make a huge impact.

      • Yahmule

        We made a point of paying him more than anybody else would as a taxi squad guy. Guess he’s much more impressive at a distance.

    • gobroncos

      Who?

      • The guy on Denver’s PS that was being paid $30K/week… after didn’t want to pay Sloter $20K/week.

  • InSiemianWeTrust

    Thought: are our TE coverage units piss poor because our scout team/first team gives them no good looks?

    • Jeremy

      I’ve wanted to dive deeper into the numbers but I think it’s in larger part because we lock down the WRs so well teams choose to attack with their TEs and running backs in the passing game.

      It’s usually your 2nd, 3rd and 4th string guys on the scout team. While I agree we don’t have any good number 1 TE, I’m not sure our #3 or #4 TE (practice squad) is any worse than the league average #3 or #4 TE.

    • Yahmule

      I can’t explain why covering tight ends has been a chronic issue, but the Broncos have been in the bottom half of the league against them every season, including 2015, since 2011. The problem with squaring those numbers is we had rapidly aging DJ Williams, human tree trunk Joe Mays and 38 year old Brian Dawkins among the guys getting isolated on tight ends that year. Still viable Champ Bailey was paired with Bennie Goodman and baby Chris Harris Jr that season @ CB. We were pretty much middle of the pack against opposing wideouts. Maybe Dennis Allen did a better job of scheming tight ends. I know that we’re on pace for some of the ugliest numbers against tight ends ever seen in 2017.

      https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2017/fantasy-points-against-TE.htm

      • Nick

        I also wonder if it’s something AFC West specific. They had to deal with Gonzalez and Gates regularly, and now it’s Kelce and maybe Hunter Henry causing problems. The Raiders haven’t had a good TE in a long time so they could provide a control sample.

        • Jeremy

          I was thinking that. And we’ve played against Gronk every one of those years as well

        • Yahmule

          Well, it is true that the Broncos have faced excellent tight ends every week in 2017. Charles Clay and Brent Celek, who have both had long productive NFL careers, are the worst tight ends they’ve faced this season.

  • Nick

    There’s a blast from the past name. Wonder if he was on the Broncos’ radar at all before they signed Kouandjio.

    https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/930533985796620289

    • Laces Out

      We explored every option..signed no one

  • Yahmule

    The post about Rae Carruth below reminded me of this article. Pretty amazing read if you missed it the first time.

    The Boy They Couldn’t Kill: How Rae Carruth’s son survived and thrives

    • The Color Orange

      Hard to believe he’s going to be out of prison in less than a year.

      • Yahmule

        Especially since he has never accepted any responsibility and in one of his few public statements, said, “I feel guilty about none of it.”

        You get the best representation you can buy in this country and Carruth had money back then. He even hired high priced attorneys to contest the custody of Chancellor.

    • Sparks

      Fantastic read, thanks for posting.

  • The Color Orange
    • Nick

      He just never could put it together on the field in the regular season. The optimistic take would be that DeMarcus Walker is improving.

      • BlackKnigh

        I would like to see Walker’s 280 lb body rushing the passer and providing the edge.

      • Jason

        I read on the inter web Demarcus was a bust ;^)

        • Nick

          Did those same interwebs say the same about Gotsis a year ago?

          • Jason

            LOL.

        • Yahmule

          I read he was a beast. Admittedly it was on a Seminole board.

          • Jason

            I read the same thing. I have high hopes for the kid and put very little stock in the first year as a prediction of future performance.

        • Royalwithcheese

          Guilty. I’d love to eat crow, but mark my words…

          • Yahmule

            I thought you were more along the thinking that we was a poor fit for what we wanted him to do, but I do remember you voicing concerns immediately.

          • Royalwithcheese

            That’s true. I guess I meant “bust” in terms of his play for Denver. He could have a future as a try-hard, rotational 4-3 DE.

    • Signed him at the expense of Dekoda Watson, who was really productive for Denver last season.

    • Jeremy

      I “met” him at training camp and really liked the guy. Shame he didn’t perform better.

  • RSH
    • Nick

      Sucks that they couldn’t move the MIA game out of the early slot.

      And doubly sucks that the Broncos aren’t good enough to have that standalone slot in week 12 anymore.

  • Terron Armstead on NFLR now, said Ramczyk has the potential to be an All-Pro and should be a candidate for rookie of the year.

    • Yahmule

      Impossible. He doesn't love the sport enough.

    • WhoShotBobbyHumphrey

      I was just thinking earlier today how awesome it would’ve been if we would’ve signed Andrew Whitworth, and drafted Ramczyk. I’m cool with Bolles at LT, but not sure if he can play RT too.

      • Kndh19

        We juuuust got outbid on both whitworth and calais Campbell. Arguably the 2 best free agent signings of the off-season.

  • The Color Orange

    Sounds like Jonathan Williams is pretty happy to be leaving. Good riddance.
    https://twitter.com/Jwillpart2/status/930519921855008775

    • Jason

      I don’t blame him for being happy to have an opportunity on the active roster.

      • The Color Orange

        99% of players in his situation thank their previous franchise and post something about how excited they are for the new opportunity. Williams posted that he couldn’t get out of Denver fast enough.

    • DCJ1

      Hopefully he’ll have an opportunity to contribute rather than not being able to get off the practice squad.

  • Jeremy

    DVOA rankings are out for the Week. Defense is 12th. 17th in pass defense and 1st in run defense. Defense has faced toughest hardest schedule as well.

    Offense is 25th. Pass offense is 27th, Rushing offense is 20th. Offense has played 2nd easiest schedule

    ST is 32nd.

    Overall team is 24th.

    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teameff

  • InSiemianWeTrust