• MarsLineman

    Hi guys, I hope you don’t mind if I share a few observations during these sad times in Bronco-land. FWIW, I think Denver’s highly-talented defensive unit lost heart once Trevor Siemian began to physically fall apart- they know better than anyone that it’s impossible to win in the NFL without a QB.

    But first, a quick observation about Deshaun Watson. The week before his ACL tear, I emailed a friend that I expected Watson to have an RGIII-type career- meaning that his rookie year would be remembered as his most successful. Watson’s posterior throwing efficiency is notably subpar, and he generates his throwing force via borrowing heavily from lateral thoracic/ lumbar areas (this posterior thoracic inefficiency is reflected in his poor throwing velocity). His throwing mechanic is unsustainable, and despite his immense overall athletic talents and strong performance this season, it seems very unlikely that he will have a long/ successful NFL QB career.

    Returning to the Broncos, I wrote in preseason 2016 that Oz showed good field generalship, but with mechanics that would likely regress as the season continued. I think the same can be said now. He’s an excellent backup QB because he can play very well for short stretches and command an offense successfully as long as his mechanics hold up. But expecting his play to remain stable for an entire season is likely wishful thinking.

    Trevor Siemian- I feel for you. When I was a cello student at music conservatory, I battled chronic tendinitis (tendinosis) for several years. After 2 years of 2x weekly physical therapy failed to make a difference (and after seeing the most highly-recommended orthopedic doctors/ therapists), I was referred to two orthopedic surgeons who both recommended surgery to relocate my ulnar tendons/ nerves towards the radius. When I told my cello professor (a very well-known/ well-respected teacher in the cloistered classical music world) of these recommendations, he told me in no uncertain terms that to his knowledge, no cellist had ever recovered from these surgeries to have a successful performance career (and he himself had been recommended the same procedure earlier in his career). I was saved from a likely career-ending decision.

    In my opinion, Trevor Siemian’s elective offseason shoulder surgery may very well have been similarly career-ending. Where last year he showed remarkable ability to mold/ adapt his mechanics around his physical limitations, this year his shoulders appeared locked in place. Although his posterior shoulders were almost certainly stabilized and strengthened by his offseason surgery, his biomechanical fluidity was highly compromised in the process. And for someone who showed such strong ability to study and adapt his mechanics as needed, such surgery was likely a tremendous mistake.

    On the plus side, although 2017 is looking like a lost season, I think Chad Kelly may just end up riding in to rescue our 2018 season. On a pure throwing level, he shows a high level of talent, with notably efficient posterior-thoracic mechanics. Until this team finds a QB, we’re likely looking at a losing squad. But there may already be one in-house. Here’s hoping Mr. Kelly can be Mr. Relevant for 2018

    • Nick

      Thanks Mars, your analysis is quite needed in times like this, when we’re trying to understand what the hell is going wrong.

      Sounds like Siemian is the next version of Tony Eason. A damn shame, but tough to blame him for something out of his control. My unsubstantiated opinion also thinks you might not be correct about Watson, but time will tell of course.

    • Carsonic

      “Don’t mind?” Always grateful for your intriguing thoughts and analysis. Good stuff to chew on, especially in these dim days.

      • MarsLineman

        Dim days indeed, but thanks for the kind words.

        • InSiemianWeTrust

          I thought Trevor’s velocity had noticeably fallen off in Week 3. Wasn’t sure if it was injury or not, but he was throwing ducks consistently. Damn shame. By the end, arm strength wasn’t the issue as his desire to compensate and inability to do so ultimately sunk him.

    • Sparks

      So, Mars, it seems you can never come here without leaving with at least one request and, thanks to me, today will be no different. Any analysis on the 2018 crop of QB’s? I’m currently on the Mayfield train so his would be great, but really any insight into the class would be most appreciated, if you have it.
      As always, fascinating analysis. Thanks for sharing.

      • MarsLineman

        Thanks for the kind words- I haven’t looked closely at anyone in the 2018 draft class yet (and I don’t really follow college football). From a short look at Mayfield, he seems to have a quick/ accurate throwing mechanic, but I’m not sure it’s sustainable long-term. Note how his right-side lower body follows the trajectory of his throws- this means that he is borrowing from his posterior lumbar areas to generate force. The best QBs generally show strong independence between posterior thoracic/ lumbar areas- look at Wentz or Dak to see examples of this independence in recently-drafted QBs. I would need to look more closely at Mayfield to form a strong opinion, but from a quick look, I think Kelly may actually be a more talented ball-thrower (and Kelly really does show a very high level of pure throwing talent)

        • Nick

          General question: have you seen any QBs that have ideal biomechanics, but were undermined by poor mental decisions, and by that I mean they just couldn’t process football at the quick pace that the NFL demands?

          • MarsLineman

            I think Jeff George is probably the best example- his mechanics look pretty spot-on, but we saw what kind of career he had

          • Nick

            Thanks. Do you think it’s more likely that lack of mental processing can be overcome by biomechanics, or is the opposite more likely to be true? Obviously there will be individual cases in both directions, but I’m curious which in your opinion is more likely.

          • JMac

            Have there been ANY great quarterbacks recently that haven’t had great mental processing? I’m guessing there are some middle of the pack ones…

            I know Wonderlic isn’t perfect, and Dan Marino is reported to have received a low score – Every time someone points that out as an argument of of physical traits over mental acuity, I think: “but his career ended 18 years ago. The game has changed significantly since then. Don’t use an exception to try and prove your point”.

            Each time Elway drafts an overly tall quarter back over a shorter one with better mental grasp of the game, that goes through my mind.

          • MarsLineman

            I think the biomechanics are sort of pre-requisites for success. If the mechanics are there, the player has the physical tools to succeed. But they still need to learn the game/ become a leader.

            The reason I was so immediately convinced that Dak was a franchise QB in preseason 2016 was that his efficient mechanics worked in tandem with immense mechanical progress in just a few short months since college- meaning he was a very hard worker/ good student. When reports of his leadership were also glowing, it became an easy call. But only because he clearly put in the time/ hard work (in combination with elite physical tools)

          • BlackKnigh

            Jeff George needed a QB coach especially when he was entering the league. He could have been one of the great ones.

        • Sparks

          Thanks for the reply. Since he’s been drafted, I’ve been very interested to seeing Kelly on the field. Hopefully, the off the field stuff is behind him. In his favor, I’ll say that not a peep has come from him since he was drafted so that’s at least trending in the right direction. Wouldn’t it be crazy if the solution to our QB woes is already on the roster?

          • MarsLineman

            Yeah, I’m really hoping that the lack of headlines indicate that he’s been working hard and keeping his nose clean

          • Sparks

            Me too. The only thing I’ve seen is a tweet from DMac saying he was throwing lasers all over the field and has a pretty long ball or something like that. It was a few weeks ago but I forgot who linked it here.

          • gobroncos

            But a few weeks later he said he was terrible in practice. This is right before they moved him to IR for the season.

          • Sparks

            Ah, now that you mention it, I think I do remember seeing that as well. Thanks for the reminder. What are your thoughts on Kelly?

          • gobroncos

            I haven’t really seen much other than a college hi-light reel or game. I generally don’t like the hi-light reels because it only shows the good stuff. I like the ones where they show every play of the game. Then you can see the good with the bad and get a feel for them.

            That being said, he looked ok in the little film I watched, but I’m certainly no QB evaluator. I think I’m hopeful he can emerge from the pack, but I have no idea. On the one hand, we did draft him, so there’s potential. On the other, NO ONE else did, which I’m hoping is attributed to his injury, and that the injury can heal without negatively affecting his game.

            His attitude is a bit of a turn off. I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t like him personally, which makes him hard to root for. He seems like an entitled little bitch. But I’ll bet a lot of football players at the NFL level are that way, so whatever.

          • Sparks

            Appreciate the response. He sure is a polarizing QB for someone who hasn’t even taken a PS snap, let alone a real game snap. Agree on the attitude and hope his college bro days are in the rearview mirror.

          • Yahmule

            Any concerns about the ruptured ligament in his wrist that he sustained during his pro day? They said he threw a dozen balls and walked off the field.

          • MarsLineman

            I’m guessing that it was along the same mechanical lines as his ACL injury- if so, the injury would make sense given the urgency of pro-day training and his being only six months removed from tearing his ACL for a 2nd time. The injuries are certainly a concern, but I’m very glad the Broncos didn’t rush him into action in 2017. By next season, he’ll have hopefully recovered fully, and can work on ironing out some of his anterior mechanical issues

    • QDoc

      Mars, thanks for the analysis as always.

      A thought for you… after Trevor’s out of the game, maybe you should reach out to him and see if some of your theories fit with his experience? Of course you’d have to approach it gently, but I wonder if, after the glare of the lights is gone and he can be honest, if there’s something to learn. Maybe ask if after the surgery, his shoulders felt tight and follow up on that or something.

      I’m by no means a good athlete, but I know that after back problems, sometimes things just feel “stuck” or too tight to make the motions I used to be able to make. These guys know their bodies a hell of a lot better than we do… that could add some good perspective to your work.

      • MarsLineman

        Thanks for the thought- it certainly would be interesting to hear Siemian’s side of the story

    • BlackKnigh

      Thanks, Mars, for your comments. It makes sense and makes me feel better – although still disappointed – about Siemians’ benching. We may be seeing the end of the line for this young man in football.
      If Kelly is as good in studying the game as Jim Kelly was – we may have a good QB in the making for net season. I would welcome a battle between him, Oz, Lynch and a 2nd or 3rd round draft pick.

  • Nick
    • JMac

      Pretty ingenious marketing. I’ll give credit where it’s due… Until it is overdone and pisses me off of course.

      • Nick

        I would not be surprised if the NFL releases a sternly written letter that reminds players about rules on endorsements on the field. They don’t fuck around with that. On the one hand, Roethlisberger is in the clear on the grounds that Bud Light is an official sponsor, but on the other hand they also have the (patently ridiculous, in my opinion) rule that players can’t endorse alcohol. They went after Brent Celek hard once when he did the Captain Morgan pose on the field.

        https://www.sbnation.com/2009/11/12/1143198/nfl-squashes-captain-morgans

        • ohiobronco

          I think he is in the clear on the grounds that it occurred during gameplay in the context of a signal. It’s a part of the game that signals must be used and since they must constantly change some creativity is needed. It would be like saying the signs college teams hold up are endorsements. It would be much different if he said it during a on field interview or wrote it on his shoes or something.

  • InSiemianWeTrust

    Skycam really hits on how accurate QBs have to be. Ben hit a slant that had literally a 1ft by 1ft window. It was incredibly impressive. Swag Kelly time.

    • Holzy

      Time to change your username.

      • InSiemianWeTrust

        I’m waiting for Siemian to get an arm transplant.

        • Steven_Searls

          I see CyberSiemian making a big comeback in 2025. Unfortunately by then he will probably be employed by another team.

    • Yahmule

      Musburger contributes some condescending stupidity. He thinks casual fans are there to listen to hacks like him paint an intimate portrait of the game. WAFD.

      November 17, 2017

      • ohiobronco

        Someone must have installed a Skycam on his lawn.

      • InSiemianWeTrust

        WAFD = What a fucking douche?

        • Yahmule

          Dick, douche, dotard. It’s pretty flexible.

          • Nick

            My position against dick referring to a person is well known. I have to think more about douche as it can have similar problems. Dotard, on the other hand, applies well to Musburger in this case.

      • Nick

        I have to admit it was cool to see Musburger to drop a “don’t give a shit”.

      • Sparks

        I know this has the little blue checkmark, but it doesn’t seem like something Musberger would say in such a public fashion. Especially the use of “don’t give a shit”. He wouldn’t use that phrase on air, why would he use it in a tweet which, for him in his position, is basically like being on air. Maybe he normally tweets like this, I don’t know.

        • Nick

          He’s 78, he doesn’t give a shit.

          • Sparks

            Good point. He never really apologized for eye-banging Katherine Webb when he was 73. ESPN did, but he didn’t.

          • Nick

            Musburger got lucky that she took that as a compliment, that’s why it didn’t blow up into anything worse.

            He was also on the call that made Jenn Sterger famous, I don’t recall how she reacted.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Pj2zV5FdYU

          • Yahmule

            Yep. He married the daughter of a highly placed CBS executive as a young man and we’ve been stuck with him ever since.

        • Yahmule

          He also begins most of his tweets with “yo.”

  • Jeremy

    Has anyone seen anything in the Bengals SB NATION site about Peko? I remember someone posting a link to an article there at the end of 2016, where they pretty much all wanted him gone.

    Would be interested to see how their opinions have changed now that he’s tearing it up here.

    Also just fun to watch people eat crow, especially when it benefits us.

    • InSiemianWeTrust

      Peko has been good.

      Our interior pass rush has not. Who provides interior pressure? After Wolfe bulked up, he’s been less explosive. And Shelby and Gotsis haven’t been as good as preseason at rushing.

      • Sparks

        With my orange tinted glasses firmly in place, I’d like to see Demarcus Walker get some opportunities there.

        • Andrew

          Have to hope he develops would suck to get nothing out of another 2nd rounder…

          • Sparks

            Agreed. It seems the only things we can competently draft in the 2nd round is DL (Wolfe and Gotsis showing life) so maybe that bodes well for Walker.

        • RSH

          As I have been stated for what feels like time immemorial, Walker has to get bigger to be afforded such opportunities. Thankfully, the coaching staff acknowledged that yesterday.

          https://twitter.com/ZacStevensBSN/status/931267221728514050

          Walker kind of reminds me of Darrell Reid. Hopefully, Walker’s ceiling is greater than Reid’s. Reid had a ton of heart and a great motor. Excellent depth and special teams player. His hit on special teams at Philadelphia in Week 16 of the 2009 season was a thing of beauty. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AVVToEZNpA

          • Yahmule

            ¿Quien es mas macho?

          • RSH

            Darrell Reid dice, “Yo soy.”

          • Sparks

            He’s listed as 6’4″-280 and Wolfe is listed as 6’5″-285 and Gotsis is 6’4″-287. Something tells me that Walker is closer to 270 and Wolfe is closer to 300. Regardless, I think even a guy at 270 is big enough to get some spot snaps. Certainly not big enough for a full time starting gig but in some situational pass rusher situations.

            Cherry picking some guys here but:
            Dwight Freeney – 6’1″-269 lbs
            Robert Mathis – 6’2″-245 lbs
            Cliff Avril – 6’3″ – 260 lbs
            Cameron Heyward – 6’5″-288 lbs
            JJ Watt – 6’5″-290 lbs

            I agree with you that he needs to be more stout (bigger, stronger) at holding the edge from what I’ve seen, but as a situational pass rusher down the stretch of this season, I’d use him.

          • RSH

            Walker on television and in-person looks more like 250 to 260 lbs. to me.

          • Sparks

            That could be. In this article there’s a pic of him next to Von who is listed at 250. I don’t know why they would overstate Walker’s weight by 30 lbs (12%). That’s a pretty large swing. In the pick it looks like he’s more stout in the legs/calves. Maybe that’s where the hidden weight is, and it would make sense that he looks smaller if he’s upper body is not as developed as lower.

            http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/With-plenty-of-veteran-support-DeMarcus-Walker-has-versatility-tested-at-outside-linebacker/272ba028-cb3a-4b0d-9d79-55d4b8b1814f

          • BlackKnigh

            I think you are right that his weight and strength is in his lower body. He does need to get stronger and add maybe 20 lbs of upper body muscle.

    • BlackKnigh

      When I watched Peko in the CIN defensive line – I was impressed with him. I saw him making plays. I do not understand people saying he wasn’t any good. I guess he is answering them this season by his performance in Denver. I love watching the guy! Hair flowing – flying forward towards the RB or QB or OL guy. Maybe wishing I could have played like that in HS.

  • Yahmule

    I’d say we’ve got about ten more years on top. Less if these things watch the news.

    November 16, 2017

    • Nick

      Skimming the article quickly, it doesn’t seem like AI is in play, so I don’t see how there’s much downside.

      • gobroncos

        Yeah, but Skynet was a program with internet access that became self aware and then took over production facilities for things like this making it mobile. It’s a slippery slope, my friend.

        Seriously, though, this is pretty cool.

      • Royalwithcheese

        The problem comes once we’re dumb enough to combine something like that with AI. It’ll happen eventually.

    • Sparks

      C’mon, it’ll never happen. You and I both know that this robot shows he’s borrowing from his lumbar thoracic area to compensate for an undersized posterior strength core flux capacitor. He’ll be out of the league in 3 years. 🙂 (channeling my inner Mars)

      • Yahmule

        They’re gonna come after smart guys like Mars first.

    • gobroncos

      This is impressive but it’s still working in basically a 2D plane. Add a 3rd dimension of rotation and then I’ll be really impressed.

    • ohiobronco
  • Nick

    We have to be prepared for the possibility that we could have a deluge of reports of sexual misconduct against NFL players like we’ve seen in other industries recently. Something like this could trigger it:

    https://twitter.com/BuzzFeed/status/931566923376099329

  • Yahmule

    The source of the latest coaching Grumors. And kudos on that smooth as fuck segue there, you experienced broadcast professional. He just likes hearing/reading his name in the media.

    “Run! The calls are coming from inside the house!”

    November 16, 2017

  • ohiobronco

    So far today no mention whatsoever about my Broncos shirt. Bengals fans have tossed in the towel to a much greater extent than Broncos fans.

    • Nick

      What’s the general feeling on Marvin Lewis that you’re picking up?

      • ohiobronco

        General feeling is that he should be/will be gone but silence in general on the team mostly this year. Most I’ve really heard about them is when the Bengals guy was on The Drive.

      • T. Jensen

        I just don’t understand how he’s kept his position so long. I mean he’s Jeff Fischer 2.0.

        • Nick

          Mike Brown has set it up this way so that he doesn’t have to owe him money for firing him, he can just choose to let his contract expire.

          • Hercules_Rockefeller

            Marvin Lewis is the perfect coach for Mike Brown’s business model. He doesn’t cost too much, he’s good enough to keep the team semi-respectable (so the fans don’t completely revolt), but he’s not quite so good that the fans ever get their expectations up too much and demand more from the team. Come to think of it, Dalton’s the perfect QB for them as well.

    • Yahmule

      Baseball town, isn’t it?

    • RSH

      Bengals’ fans have a lot more to be sad about. We are having one down season, and Broncos Country is losing its mind. I cannot imagine having to deal with the suckitude of being a Bengals or Browns fan.

      • I think they are calloused.

      • Yahmule

        Having the Browns across the state makes being a Bengals fan tolerable. You can suck out loud and still walk about feeling like the big brother.

      • Yahmule

        The Browns have lost 28 in a row and 35 of their last 36. Anyone who can still walk into that stadium wearing their Kosar jersey is a better fan than I can imagine being.

        • Royalwithcheese

          28 in a row! How did I not realize that?

          • Yahmule

            They won a game last year. Refresh and you’ll see my edit.

        • Nick

          Is 2-34 the worst stretch in NFL history? The 1976-1978 Bucs made it to 2-30 and the 2007-2009 Lions made it to 2-31. Don’t know who would be worse than that.

          • Nick

            If we go with games below .500 as a metric, start after a certain game in Detroit that will go unnamed, and end before a 4 game winning streak they put on, the 2007-2010 Lions had a 5-47 stretch. Browns would need to lose 11 more to beat that.

          • DCJ1

            They can do it! I know they can!

          • Nick
  • So…Bengals are 30th in points and 32nd in yards this season. This is a “get right” game for the Broncos D, coming off of facing KC #5, #5 respectively), Philly (#2, #4 ) and NE (#4, #1). Time to regain some swagger.

    • Yahmule

      No offensive line ever manufactured could shed talent like Whitworth and Zeitler in one off season and not implode spectacularly.

    • RSH

      A game with no offensive turnovers, limited penalties and mistakes, scores in the red zone, and some sacks and turnovers created by the Broncos would be most welcomed and cathartic.

      • Royalwithcheese

        No turnovers. No turnovers. No turnovers. No turnovers. No turnovers.

        • ohiobronco

          I would be happy with just scoring touchdowns.

        • T. Jensen

          apple turnovers?

  • LH Almeida

    For those who haven’t seen, BB breaks down the plays on ST they beat us.

    https://youtu.be/_5fHlLbsqCU

    • gobroncos

      Oh god. I don’t know if I can watch this. Too painful.

      • LH Almeida

        Fwiw, it’s highly instructional. You’ll sure learn something about STs from the Lord Sith himself.

        • gobroncos

          I did watch it. I’m a glutton for punishment. Looks like a lot of individual players just didn’t beat their assignments and took bad angles, or let guys by that they weren’t supposed to. I attribute a lot of this to coaching.

          • LH Almeida

            It was totally on coaching.

          • T. Jensen

            I’m not on the fire VJ bandwagon yet but I am on the fire Brock bandwagon.

            Our ST has been atrocious all year. I can understand the coverage teams regressing (I can’t accept it but I understand it, we lost Webster etc). But how the heck do punters and kickers regress this much?

            So I guess my message to Vance Joseph after the patriots game is: “Hold your assistant coaches accountable”

          • Sparks

            I agree on the coaching. That’s why I was one of the few (maybe the only one) calling for Olivo’s job earlier this week. His ST’s haven’t been just bad, they’ve been absolutely horrible. That said, ultimately the players got to play as well. Had McKenzie simply made the right call to fair catch one and kneel on the other, it would have removed 2 of the 4 plays from Belichick’s video montage. Of course, I’m assuming here that McKenzie could even field a fair catch cleanly. Big assumption.

          • gobroncos

            He’s not doing that of his own free will. The coaches are telling him to field the ball and run with it. They’re probably saying fair catch it if you have to, but use your judgement and take it to the house if you can. Basically, they’re telling him he has the green light to field the punt/kickoff and run. I get that they’re trying to create a spark, or make something happen with ST’s, but the risk has not been worth the reward. And the rest of the coaching hasn’t allowed him to field a punt without someone bearing down on him. Every time, there’s a guy in his face. that’s on the cover unit. Which also falls back to the coaching. Belicheat pointed out how many ways they’re failing on the coverage and blocking units. BOTH sides of ST’s are terrible. I agree with you that Olivo must go.

          • Sparks

            Agreed. I was speaking more to your line “fair catch it if you have to, but use your judgement”. McKenzie, in both instances, used horrible judgment, regardless of any green light he may have had. I do blame the coaches for even having him out there after he’d already fumbled 4 times. You’re spot on about blocking assignments and coverage teams though. Belichick had to stifle a chuckle when he said “they decided to double Ebner. Pretty unusual, uou usually don’t see that player get double teamed like that”.

          • Royalwithcheese

            They had seven guys to block six on the punt block. BB even says you don’t usually see a kick blocked in that scenario. Guys had no idea who to block.

            On the KO return, guys were beaten so soundly, so quickly, that by the time Lewis was at the 5, you could tell that was going for the TD. The “twist” they tried to run was poorly conceived and terribly executed.

            On 84’s fumble, they left one guy totally unblocked to double-team Ebner. “Don’t usually see that,” BB says.

            All coaching.

          • gobroncos

            agreed.

          • BlackKnigh

            The screw-ups on ST cost Denver the ability to compete in this game. Had the points and turnovers not come with the ST – Denver had a chance to win this game IMO. Not to mention the psychological effect on the defense to have taken NE off the field in 3 plays to start the game – only to have to come back on to defend their own goal line. Pathetic.
            Take away the first 14 points by NE – and you could wind up with a neck and neck battle that could have gone either way. Give the PATs credit for exploiting Denver’s weakness.

    • RSH
  • RSH
    • Man I wish Jake butt was healthy :/

  • Royalwithcheese

    Outside of Bolles, the latest draft class has actually hurt the Broncos more than helped this season. Take that in for a second.

    • John

      Not surprising. Again, Elway is drafting Day 2 players that don’t contribute much (if anything) their first year. That is a major reason why this team is now bad.

    • Forrest Trump

      It’s so easy, too. Just last night on Fanspeak my 4 round hall was Rosen, Q. Nelson, C. Sutton and O. Brown, Jr.

      I don’t know why the Broncos struggle so much.

      • Sparks

        It is difficult but to be fair, 3 of their picks have been hurt. Of those 3, 2 are projected to be productive players (CHenderson and JButt) and the 3rd might be in the QB carousel they roll out next year.

        • Forrest Trump

          Oh, I know. Too early…hopefully.

          I just forgot how goofy the draft simulators are. Three of my four picks could conceivably go in the Top 15 and Sutton might be a 1st rounder, too.

          • Sparks

            If the Broncos could, by the grace of the football gods, end up with your 4 picks there, I’d be ecstatic! 🙂

          • Yahmule

            If we could end up with just Rosen or Nelson, I would be ecstatic.

          • Sparks

            Even being injured and others (Mayfield especially) tearing it up, Rosen probably still projects as the best NFL QB and should still be comfortably nestled in that #1 slot.

          • Yahmule

            I would be really happy with any of the top three QB’s.

          • Sparks

            Rosen, Mayfield and….?

          • Yahmule

            Darnold.

          • Sparks

            Over Jackson, huh? Interesting.

          • Yahmule

            I would be fine with Jackson, too. I like that he improved his accuracy this season. I just think Darnold has all the tools. His game tape from 2016 is just stellar. This season is going to be a good thing for him in the long run.

          • Sparks

            CU isn’t exactly the barometer from which to measure incoming QB’s but his game last week against the Buffs was very good. It was my first time watching a full game of his. He seemed to have good pocket presence, was larger than I’d originally thought, good arm strength and exceptional accuracy. He made several NFL quality throws.

          • Forrest Trump

            Rosen, Nelson and Mayfield are my early darlings.

            I’m also intruiged by D. James, just because he is the kind of hybrid player that might be able to mitigate against the rise of the satellite back.

        • Royalwithcheese

          I expect both of them to be contributors next year, and Langley might play a lot more if they cut Talib. But it’s just astounding that you can have a negative contribution from nearly an entire draft class.

          • Sparks

            Yeah, it’s pretty crazy. The one that surprises me the most is Walker. I know you’re not a big fan but I thought we’d see more than inactives across the board for him. Of course, I thought the same about Gotsis and he may be a player yet.
            I guess that’s not true, the one who surprised me the most is Bolles, just for the opposite reason.

          • Royalwithcheese

            Yeah, if they had kept him at DE, I at least think he would’ve been active.

      • Yahmule

        They really need to fix their default rankings. :~)

  • Yahmule

    There’s no doubt Elway and company must draft better. That said, it’s not hard to see why they’ve begun to lose ground to their rivals.

    Since Elway took over, the Broncos have drafted higher than 20th once, when they took Von second in 2011. Our opponents have had several more opportunities at high draft picks.

    • Yahmule

      The Chiefs have picked 1st, 10th. 11th and 18th.
      The Raiders have picked 4th, 5th, 12th and 18th.
      The Chargers have picked 3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th and 18th twice.

      • gobroncos

        What I’d like to see is what players we’ve drafted at what position and order in the draft, and what players in the league at that same position have excelled that were still available and what players at that same position chosen before have had success or not had success.

        It’ll help to give a little comparison to other teams. Without that it’s say to say we never hit on our picks, but I think it’s pretty common with other teams too. Lot’s of players are busts, or diamonds depending on where you pick them and if you just kind of get lucky.

        • Forrest Trump

          It seems with QBs and OTs to matter to a certain extent.

          I can’t back that up with science, but that is my perception.

      • Nick

        It might be interesting for me to do a tale of the tape AFC West article in the offseason when we get closer to draft time.

    • Forrest Trump

      I kind of feel dirty about it, but this is why I’ll be fine if they can’t get their shit together. Almost rooting that they don’t. They don’t often get a shot at the pick of the litter at whatever position they go.

      Its also got some depth at QB, OT, and has at least two blue chip OGs. They could concievably get two immediate impact players with their first two selections this year.

      • Royalwithcheese

        Sign Tyrod, take Nelson and Rankins?

    • Hank Mardukis
  • Sparks

    So, lost in all our conversations this week was one sign of growth for Coach VJ.

    Game Info
    Won Toss Broncos (deferred)

    https://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201711120den.htm

    • BlackKnigh

      That is growth IMO. Play your strong suit first.

  • Nick
  • InSiemianWeTrust
  • WhoShotBobbyHumphrey

    2 people that you do not want calling you soft. Your wife, and John Elway.
    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2017/11/17/elway-on-broncos-we-got-a-little-bit-soft/

  • Andrew

    Anybody see parallels with Smith-Mahomes to Plummer-Cutler? Would not surprise me to see that change even with Smith having a pretty good year.