BREAKING: Vance Joseph Named New Broncos Head Coach

UPDATE: 12:50 P.M. MST: John Elway makes it official.

And Mike Klis has more details.

Vance Joseph served as the defensive coordinator for the Miami Dolphins this past season. Previously, he was the defensive backs coach for the Cincinnati Bengals in 2014 and 2015. He had interviewed for the HC position in 2014 when Elway opted to hire Gary Kubiak. After the Broncos requested an interview with Joseph to be the defensive coordinator, the Bengals denied permission for an interview.

Joseph will be the Broncos’ first black head coach holding the position on a full-time basis. Eric Studesville was an interim head coach for four games in 2010.

Joseph played for the University of Colorado as a quarterback and running back, finishing his career with 454 yards passing and four touchdowns and rushing for 237 yards. He signed with the New York Jets as an undrafted free agent in 1995 and switched to defensive back, playing two seasons for the Jets and Indianapolis Colts.

His first coaching job was as the secondary coach for the University of Wyoming in 2002. He also coached the secondary at the University of Colorado and Bowling Green University. He joined the San Francisco 49ers as a secondary assistant in 2005, then was promoted to defensive backs coach, a position he shared with Johnnie Lynn until 2010. He then joined the Houston Texans as defensive backs coach from 2011 to 2013.

Andrew Mason shared this statement from Miami Dolphins head coach, and former Broncos offensive coordinator, Adam Gase about Joseph.

UPDATE: 12:57 P.M. MST: Joseph has two candidates in mind for offensive coordinator.

And it sounds like Broncos defensive backs coach Joe Woods will move up to defensive coordinator.

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Bob Morris

I'm a sports writer in real life, though I've always focused on smaller communities, but that hasn't stopped me from learning more about some of the ins and outs of the NFL. You can follow me on Twitter @BobMorrisSports if you can put up with updates on the high school sports teams I cover.

  • Random Anonymous Coward

    Who are the OC candidates ?

    Broncos OC/Chargers HC McCoy
    Raiders OC Musgrave

    • Hercules_Rockefeller

      McCoy sounds great to me. Musgrave’s not bad either, but I’ve really liked McCoy, going back to the excellent job he did in 2009. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, I really, really love a coach who has the flexibility to mold his system to the talent on the roster.

      • Random Anonymous Coward

        We do have some good experiences with coaches who left the Raiders on bad terms.

        • T. Jensen

          neither have me excited but I think I’d rather have Musgraves over McCoy.

          Just out of curiosity (speaking of leaving Raiders on bad terms), where’s Dennis Allen now?

          • RagnarRagnarsson

            I’d rather it be Musgrave as well. I think Dennis Allen is back with the Saints BTW

          • Saints DC.

  • DragonPie

    This is fine, I suppose. I mean, I do think that the problem with the offense wasn’t as much scheme as it was talent with only two recieving targets and linemen who were poor in both run and pass blocking, I think it’s hard to accomplish too much.

    I also think that the defensive talent is good enough to transcend scheme.

    I just hope they can make sure they have some coaches who can improve the depth because if there was something that was failing to occur on offense, it was development of O-line and receiver talent. That might just be “busts happen” but I’ve always loved Elway’s mindset of developing quality players and not just hoping to get lucky in the draft, but whoever you have, develop them to the utmost.

  • Hercules_Rockefeller

    Vance Joseph looks like a solid pick for me. the biggest downside is that he’s only had the one year of coordinator experience, but I think he makes sense for what I believe Elway’s trying to accomplish (particularly if we pair him with a good OC). The way I think Elway is approaching this is in some ways the opposite of what he was doing when he hired John Fox. At that point he needed a solid leader to have a steady hand on the wheel at a time when the franchise was in a ton of turmoil. At this time the franchise has plenty of stability built into it, so it’s a great chance to take a risk on a guy who’s well respected and really smart, with a ton of upside. It might take a couple of years for him to become a really good head coach, but with the broncos he’d have a chance to develop as a head coach that most new head coaches never get (since most of them end up with the same 3-4 bottom feeding teams). Elway’s betting that a good franchise can help develop a head coach just like a good coaching staff can help develop a player. there is some precedent for this when you look at other first-time head coaches hired by perennially good NFL franchises such as Mike Tomlin with the Steelers or Mike McCarthy* of the Packers (or possibly Ben McAdoo with the giants, time will tell with him).

    *I know everyone hates him, and he’s certainly not the greatest coach around, but he’s a solid coach who’s sustained success for a while, as compared to the average head coach who lasts 2-3 years and is done.

  • Hercules_Rockefeller

    It's official.Excited to announce Vance Joseph as head coach of the Denver Broncos! pic.twitter.com/m87uUn9KXs— John Elway (@johnelway) January 11, 2017

  • If this is the case, just keep Knapp.

    https://twitter.com/CameronWolfe/status/819270131251630087

  • ElwayIsGod7

    What’s the latest on Wade?

    • Rhett Rothberg
      • ElwayIsGod7

        You are not my huckleberry; try again with the answer I want to hear.

    • Rhett Rothberg

      My read on it is that the Broncos aren’t willing to provide Wade with the monetary and contract length security he might be pushing for. Further, while the meme is of course that Wade is the sole reason that this defense excelled, it does, not strangely, line up with the maturation of some of its current stars… So, they are probably playing the 80% solution… Assume that the players are in large part the reason for the defense’s success and that the replacement under consideration will be sufficient… So in the cost-benefit analysis, they don’t see a reason to go in on Wade…

  • Going to be tons of fun playing against Toub’s ST unit in KC next yr…

  • RagnarRagnarsson

    Man, I’ll be rooting for Vance Joseph, and I hope I’m wrong, but I think Elway and Co. outsmarted themselves with this hire. Seems like an easy path back deep into playoffs with simply adding some offensive innovation / leave D ALONE.

    • ElwayIsGod7

      Hopefully VJ is the kind of guys that hires an OC & let’s him run the offense.

      • RagnarRagnarsson

        Agreed, and hopefully not much tinkering on the D

      • SterlingMalloryArcher

        And hopefully that OC is good at his job. That’s not really a given.

        • ElwayIsGod7

          That & hopefully we give him a few better players to work with.

  • PiperAR

    I had assumed the Raiders was Musgrave’s first stint as OC, and that’s incorrect. He’s been around, OC here, QB coach there. Looks like a similar path as Greg Knapp. I’m less excited.

    Wonder what Musgrave did to be hired and (apparently) fired by JDR twice.

    • GrizzlyB

      To the second part of your post, here is a theory: Jack Del Rio is a tool.

    • Fired also in Minnesota. Typical retread, old boys club hire. At least go after someone fresh, innovative.

      • cjfarls

        Not a lot of really innovative stuff happening on offense in the NFL these days, at least at the coordinator level (Unless you want to go after one of Kelly’s folks).
        Kyle Shannahan as coordinator was probably doing the most interesting stuff, and he’s gonna get a headcoach job.

        • SterlingMalloryArcher

          In addition to Chip Kelly, I feel like Kyle Shanahan’s WCO is significantly updated and fresh; Tennessee is doing some cool stuff to accommodate Mariota’s development; Darrell Bevell has been exceptionally creative in Seattle to maximize Russell Wilson’s talent and overcome bad OL play and a lack of talent at WR; the Panthers have some rather unique looks offensively, which worked well for them last year; Sean McVay was crushing it in Washington… There seems to me to be a fair amount of creative and fresh things happening out there. I don’t think innovation is always blatantly obvious to the casual observer, but it’s always happening.

    • The Color Orange

      If safe, boring, utterly predictable playcalling is your thing, Musgrave is your guy.

      • Royalwithcheese

        I thought that was McCoy?

  • Carsonic

    The one thing that I worry about is Gase’s description of him as an “alpha male” type. I associate that with type A personalities, which seems to be the opposite of Kubiak and Wade. Domineering is the last thing our players would appreciate. But perhaps that’s not what Gase meant.

    • Yahmule

      I kind of see him as a cross between Gary and Tom Jackson. A guy who can relate to players, but can also get in their asses when necessary.

      • Carsonic

        That works for me.

  • RSH, Esq.
    • SterlingMalloryArcher

      Funny that we point to accomplishments as a coordinator being not necessarily indicative of success as a head coach, but it’s apparently safe to say success as a position coach correlates directly.

      ETA: Not saying that’s your point.

      • RSH, Esq.

        Take this post for what it is. I do not think that this in and of itself makes Joseph a great hire or that Miami’s defensive flops should be completely discounted.

      • Right, and Paul Guenther Cincy’s DC gets no credit for it?

  • Hank Mardukis

    A first year head coach, with one year as a coordinator and a first year DC. Ballsy. These guys better be good.

  • RSH, Esq.
    • GrizzlyB

      He’s my choice, especially if we’re throwing Wade out on his ass. Should have at least one experienced coach high in the pecking order (head coach/coordinator) on the team.

    • Oh man, double whammy.

    • Hm I didn’t see this before my comment above. Not sure this is confirmed yet tho? I would prefer Musgrave myself, but maybe they want someone more experienced to be on the team with a first time HC (and will continue with my “I don’t know anything” theme πŸ˜‰ )

    • Nick

      Something important to remember about this is that unless his contract had expired, he’d have to get permission to leave for a non-head coach job, and I can’t see any way the Raiders would let him go to a division rival.

  • Since some comparisons to Mike Tomlin have been made by a few, here’s an observation regarding Tomlin.

    Tomlin was known for his work as the defensive backs coach with Tampa Bay from 2001 to 2005. He was hired to be defensive coordinator for the Minnesota Vikings in 2006. On one hand, the Vikings defense did rise from 23rd to sixth in Football Outsiders DVOA. On the other hand, while the Vikings were the best in run defense DVOA, they were 18th in pass defense DVOA… not exactly something you would expect from a guy who coached defensive backs.

    So while Tomlin and Joseph aren’t exactly comparable in terms of what they did their first year as a defensive coordinator, it wasn’t like Tomlin was perfect in every way. The one area in which he was expected to be good (pass defense) was not something the Vikings were that good at when he was their defensive coordinator.

    We’ll see what Joseph does in terms of the guys he hires and what they do for the Broncos.

    • Rahim Morris was “the next Mike Tomlin” once upon a time too. Denver even interviewed him in the McDaniels cycle, and the hype caused Tampa to hastily fire Gruden and promote Morris.

      • RSH, Esq.

        Morris was 32. Joseph is 44. Joseph has a whole lot more life and coaching experience than Morris did when he was hired as a first-time head coach.

        • And Tomlin was 34 when he was hired. Do you dispute that Morris got his opportunity largely cause he was tabbed the “next Mike Tonlin”? Bob made the point of comparison with Tomlin and my response was intended to say he could be the next Tomlin or Rahim Morris. The next Jim Harbaugh or Jim Tomsula.

  • Royalwithcheese

    I have to say, VJ is going to face a lot of skepticism from the fanbase. If they struggle in year 1 or 2, it won’t be pretty. Passing on Kyle and saying goodbye to Wade … I myself don’t get it.

    • cjfarls

      Yep. This is certainly an “Elways asserts himself as smarter than the fans” move.
      If it works, great… but it opens Elway up to a lot of second guessing if it doesn’t.
      The “easy” choice was certainly Shannahan and Wade… but the easy choices are not always the best choices.

    • Rhett Rothberg

      Imagine if KS ends up in SD…

      • ElwayIsGod7

        Maybe JE sends him there as a secret spy to destroy SD from the inside like Belicheat did with JM!

      • I don’t think he interviewed with SD, did he? Could happen next week if they lose to Sea or before SB if Falcons make it that far.

      • RSH, Esq.

        Then what? Is Shanahan even scheduled to interview with the Chargers?

        • SterlingMalloryArcher

          It would just set up a lot of chances for second guessing among the fan base.

        • Rhett Rothberg

          Not yet and probably won’t.

      • WhoShotBobbyHumphrey

        My new hope is that the Falcons destroy the Seahawks this weekend, win the Super Bowl, and Kyle Shanahan goes to San Francisco to lead an NFC dynasty that destroys the Seahawks every year, but falls just short, against Denver, in four consecutive Super Bowls. A lot of commas, I know.

      • Snatch Mouth

        That would be horrific

    • Jeremy

      I wonder when fans will start questioning Elway if VJ struggles. Hopefully we never find out.

      • SterlingMalloryArcher

        It’s bound to happen at some point.

    • fans (no offense to anyone here) who go in already hating a guy before he’s done anything can basically bite me. Sorry. I don’t mind, and I understand, some skepticism, but closed minds are maddening. Fans who think they know more than Elway and his staff are maddening. I get it, but hope that people give him a chance. and I don’t mean, “oh no he’s lost 1 out of his first two games, he sucks!” kind of chances. πŸ˜‰

  • ElwayIsGod7

    IF Denver does promote Woods instead of keeping Wade, I wonder how much of that decision would be made out of a fear of losing Woods. It’s not hard to imagine Wade retiring now or in the near future, and being left with no Woods.

    Whatever happens here, Elway has earned my trust.

    • Woods is under contract for another yr. so they could block his move to any position except HC.

      • ohiobronco

        If they blocked him he would be gone when is contract is up.

        • That’s not necessarily true, could have promised him DC role when Wade retired in two yrs. let’s say.

          • Kwash

            We have no idea when Wade will retire.

        • Nick

          I would imagine that they’ll give him an extension if he is promoted to DC.

  • WhoShotBobbyHumphrey

    Welcome to Bronco Country, Vance! You are now family… unless you lose one game… Then we are all going to talk shit, get pissed at you, and wish we hired Kyle Shanahan instead. When you win, we will take back all the negative shit that we said about you, act like you were the best hire ever, and were good all along. Good luck! -#IEWT

  • SterlingMalloryArcher

    Repeating this from the last thread because I’m curious what you guys think:

    Well shit. I wanted 1. Shanahan HC; 2. Wade DC; and 3. If no Shanahan HC, then a young, cutting edge, innovative tactician at OC. Took the collar. 0 for 3.

    So now I hope 1. That Joseph is indeed the type of leader whom players will run through a brick wall for; 2. that McCoy is at least 80% the offensive mind that Shanahan is; and that 3. Joe Woods’ defensive strategy is a strikingly similar / slightly nuanced version of Wade Phillips’ own strategy. Will I have better luck with the second wishlist?

    • SterlingMalloryArcher

      Help me out… How will McCoy fix the offense? How is his scheme a good fit for Siemian or Lynch? What do we know about Joe Woods, other than he’s been good with a very talented group of DBs, like his new boss?

      I could come up with some answers on my own, but I’d love to hear specific thoughts from the crowd. MAKE ME GROW TO LOVE THIS.

      • With McCoy, we know what he’s done: He adapts his offensive scheme to fit the strengths of the quarterback. This was the coordinator who managed to get something out of Tim Tebow, by far the most inaccurate passer who played for the Broncos since Elway took over football operations.

        He’s also credited with doing more of the work to get Kyle Orton improve as a passer than Josh McDaniels did and was comfortable with working with Peyton Manning, by far the most demanding QB in terms of what he wants to do on offense.

        I’d have to research Joe Woods, but McCoy… c’mon man, you ought to know about McCoy.

        • SterlingMalloryArcher

          Sure, but I mean how do vertical, Erhardt-Perkins concepts align with Siemian’s or Lynch’s abilities? How does the current offensive line group translate into those concepts? With McCoy’s history as an OC okay-but-not-great (Adam Gase did more with essentially the same group in Denver and McCoy hasn’t had the same level of success as Shanahan), what might he do to take Denver’s offense from hard-to-watch to hard-to-stop?

      • Rhett Rothberg

        Elway made the choice, so you need to just love it… You can’t possibly comprehend it, so quit trying…

        • Yahmule

          Actually, given the information available to us, this is true. The guy who has vetted and admired Vance Joseph for over two years does know him better than someone who has never spoken to him.

          • Rhett Rothberg

            forgot my sarcasm font… πŸ˜‰ My point here is that it doesn’t matter. Why is there such a concern on here about being right? It doesnt matter. This isn’t government policy discussion. Its NFL football banter… It has zero impact in the real world…

            So if we speculate and that speculation is wrong, so be it… But it shouldn’t be frowned upon to attempt to understand and explain….especially if the team isn’t going to explicitly explain things for us.

          • PiperAR

            “Speculate” is quite broad. I take available info past and present and look for the most likely, most soundly logical explaination.

            If I wanted D-Douche conspiricy theory shit, I can go to websites to read about how the Illuminati or New World Order orchistrates all world events, or that Annunaki aliens genetically engineered humans as gold mining slaves.

          • Rhett Rothberg

            My point is not well made on this matter….

            To rephrase… Why is there a general concern amongst ourselves whether or not each other is right?

          • Yahmule

            It’s not well made because this nebulous criticism you’re leveling is applicable to you as well.

          • Rhett Rothberg

            Nebulous ideas are the most interesting to discuss so that we can try to make them less nebulous πŸ™‚

          • Yahmule

            I just find this victim mentality tiresome. We’re closing in on almost 700 posts here today in roughly 14 hours. If somebody is shutting down debate around here, they’re doing a shit job of it.

          • Rhett Rothberg

            Again, I am not doing well at making my point if it comes across that there is any claim of victimhood…

          • PiperAR

            Is there concern whether each other is right, or whether ideas put forward meet some minimum standard of plausibility?

          • Rhett Rothberg

            For me, I am not concerned with either…

          • PiperAR

            No, no you’re not.

          • Rhett Rothberg

            Should I be? πŸ™‚

          • Alaskan

            No.

          • Rhett Rothberg

            I get that this is perhaps splitting a thin hair that may not be interesting to some. I don’t particularly care if someone speculates or presents an off the wall idea. But I am happy to engage on those ideas which can come off as maybe seeming to care. But it’s more valuing the discussion than trying to shut down the idea or the discussion

          • PiperAR

            If engaging in discussion on any idea for the sake of discussion is your thing, you’re welcome to it. I’m not interested and I have a hard time understanding it. It comes off to me as #allopinionsmatter. All opinions don’t matter. The opinion the Earth is 6000 years old based on counting the generations in a bronze age book of fables is not equally valid as scientific study of the planet’s geological features. The belief that Jesus is coming back soon to give us a brand new shiny planet (which implies this one is disposable) is not equal to scientists who study climate telling us the human race is fucked by the end of the 21st century if we don’t change course.
            Also, football is really really hard. 32 teams are competing for the same talent pool of coaches and players. The worst starting QB in the NFL is still one of the 50 best at the job in a nation of 300+ million people. Suggestions that the front office, coaching staff, or players are incompetent bums and CLEARLY there are better solutions out there which are obvious to EVERYONE EXCEPT the front office and coaching staff, really raise my hackles.

          • Rhett Rothberg

            Ok, good. So, yes, much of my blather on this is in the context of our NFL discussions. I certainly agree with your take vis a vis the climate change debate for example. In that context, there comes the point where the denial opinions for example have real, dangerous outcomes for our world. So agree completely, there are times when all opinions do not have equal merit…

            But when it comes to more philosophical discussions, such as our NFL based ones, I think that mostly, off the wall opinions have no real impact. My take on a certain aspect of the Broncos has zero impact in the real world…

            I also agree that professional football is very difficult…and I hope I never come off as one who would say that anyone is some idiot who doesnt know what they are doing. They clearly must be in the top 5% of the football world to even get in the door.

            But I hope we can debate the ins and outs nonetheless. Because again, if we are hoping to be right, then most of us should just stop now. But if we are hoping to better understand and explain, then I think we have a fighting chance!

          • Yahmule

            Rhett, you’re equally dismissive of opinions that don’t fit your world view. Portraying people who have confidence in Elway as victims of mind control (when you’re not suggesting they’re willing participants in a totalitarian regime) is not a pathway to understanding.

          • Rhett Rothberg

            That’s fair, I’m open for criticism on this topic πŸ™‚

            I try to focus on the ideas. Yes, I will debate an idea, but try not to make the presenter feel as though they are wrong or try to change their mind. Opposition is not being dismissive…. And certainly not of my fellow debater. Not my intent.

            Yes, I do poke at the notion that we should just trust Elway as I find that the response simply shuts down discussion and serves no purpose. I’m not criticizing people who hold that view, more criticizing using that view in discussion.

            That to me is certainly no pathway to understanding

          • SterlingMalloryArcher

            I’m always confused by that response as well. When I questioned Kubiak’s decision to reinsert Manning last year in the Chargers game when Osweiler was marching up and down the field at will, I got a lot of “HE KNOWS MORE THAN YOU SO SHUT UP!” Same with Elway (who I don’t question all that often). If it’s always going to be “Trust them. They know what they’re doing,” then what is there to talk about?

          • Yahmule

            I don’t see people saying trust Elway blindly or anyone being told to shut up. I think if you posit that Elway is doing something patently stupid for inexplicable reasons then you should expect some blowback. I think people complaining about congratulatory Tweets that mention the same core traits about VJ in their 140 character allotment instead of accessing the myriad other options to learn more about the man are disingenuous and really don’t deserve to be coddled.

      • Rhett Rothberg

        I will go devyl’s advocate on this… To me, the primary failings of this past season were not necessarily scheme… To me, the biggest challenges this team faced were due to: 1) A coaching staff that begin to disintegrate mid-season. The team was 7-3, about to go 8-3 w/ a big win over KC. But Kubes went down & clearly lost focus after that…the season was downhill from there… 2) foundational talent: The talent that has been drafted has either been poorly chosen or poorly developed and it came home to roost a bit this year.

        Those two things were a perfect storm that derailed a team that had the chance to be better. Solution? A coaching staff that can at least be more focused and 25% better at talent development can be successful…

        Again, I have a preference for the technocrat, but, I have an open mind…. It can work…..until it doesn’t.

      • InSiemianWeTrust

        Yeah. I don’t get a new HC getting rid of Wade. 2M is chump change. Wade was getting incredible results managing a $80M defense (total guess estimate.) Managers get paid big bucks for a reason. A coach not getting paid as much as Jared Crick? Screw that.

    • SterlingMalloryArcher

      And Wade Phillips, who he’s not interested in retaining. I wonder how he feels about the rest of the group?

      • And how the group who may be loyal to Phillips feels about the move now. Make no mistake this is about $. Finally today I saw a figure of what Wade wanted… $2M per was the top DC market and that is what he wanted.

        • Jeremy

          Source? And what does average DC make? When the salary cap is 160 million I really have a hard time believing they let 1 million come in the way of retaining a great coordinator

      • https://twitter.com/MikeKlis/status/819283503464464394

        This would address the question about whether or not all the position coaches could just go wherever they wanted.

        • SterlingMalloryArcher

          So they can essentially be retained against their will. Not sure that’s a positive.

  • RSH, Esq.
  • The Color Orange
    • Tyler

      This is really the only reason I didn’t want VJ as coach. Anyone who wants to justify this decision is grasping at straws imo.

      • It’s about $ and it’s coming from Elway. If VJ is calling the plays Elway figures why pay $2M per to Wade.

        • Tyler

          If it was really about cash Elway would have let Phillips know beforehand that he would not be retained regardless of HC so he could seek out other jobs. If VJ wanting to call plays is the reason we are losing Philips then it makes it easy to stand by my reasoning for not wanting him as our coach.

      • RSH, Esq.

        There is no guarantee that Shanahan or Toub would have kept Wade Phillips either. There are rumblings that Gary Kubiak would not have retained Phillips as defensive coordinator.

        • Tyler

          Maybe. But VJ was the only coach where there was a strong consensus before hand that Wade would not be retained.

          • pubkeeper

            I don’t know that Elway wanted Wade back regardless of who was coach.

          • RSH, Esq.

            Which does not make sense to me considering that Vance Joseph said that Wade has had the biggest impact on his career. I think the retention of Phillips was strictly a front office decision.

          • Tyler

            If he was gone no matter who the HC was then I’m sure Elway would not have left him dangling in the wind this whole time. The new HC was going to get a say and VJ said see ya.

          • ElwayIsGod7

            I think one of the best things Elway did after murder-slaying JM was improve communications with fans; I hope he continues that with some good communication about Wade if he does leave. I trust Elway; I just want closure.

          • SterlingMalloryArcher

            Could be lip service.

          • Jeremy

            He said it in early October when we were 4-0 and before Kubiak’s health scare and before it seemed there was even the slightest of chances this HC position would open. Still could be lip service, but not in the context I think you are suggesting. http://www.miamidolphins.com/news/article-4/AC-In-The-AM-10-Questions-With-Vance-Joseph/4219764e-5367-42e9-ad18-24062a0a59b5

          • SterlingMalloryArcher

            I meant it only in the context that he used to work with Wade and would have said nice things about him no matter how he really felt, out of respect.

          • Jeremy

            He was asked, who had the greatest impact on your coaching career and he chose to answer Wade Phillips. Why would he chose that name over the dozens of other coaches he’s worked with if it weren’t true?

          • SterlingMalloryArcher

            So do you think he was not allowed to retain Wade, and that he would have if given the opportunity?

          • Jeremy

            No explanation really seems plausible right now, but one must be true. Maybe it’s health concerns. Maybe they think Joe Wood can do a better job and don’t want to lose him. Maybe wade and Elway clashed about something (d not forcing enough turnovers?) and Elway’s ego got in the way and he wanted him out. Maybe VJ didn’t want the weird dynamic of having his former mentor report to him (or wade didn’t want it). Maybe Wade really liked working with Kubiak and didn’t want to work on a new staff. Maybe it was financial. Maybe all the reports are wrong and he’ll come back.

            Again, none of these seem plausible to me. What do you think?

            I feel that VJ and Elway discussed this and were in agreement or they wouldn’t have reached an agreement for VJ to become coach.

          • SterlingMalloryArcher

            I don’t know. It just doesn’t make sense to me that he both thinks Wade is awesome AND doesn’t want Wade on his staff.

          • Rhett Rothberg

            I tend to agree… I think there are monetary issues, but also longer term issues at play…to include alignment with organizational vision

          • Also play calling. Redundant to have Wade if VJ must call his own plays. Don’t agree but that’s the way it is.

    • Also, when Wade was out after being run over wasn’t it Herring that called the defense? Interesting that he’s being passed over by Woods.

  • CFD1983

    Welcome Vance, now let’s see how you build your winning team, it starts with your coaching staff and review of current players and draft picks… time is ticking…

  • Bill Musgrave would make a lot of sense actually. Any ideas as to why Raiders let him go? I know they were fans of the guy under him and similar to Woods didn’t want to lose him, but is there more to it than that? Seems like he’s done really well and had good success with young QBs. I think I’d prefer him to McCoy. (Sorry if I’m covering 100 other comments below me, just now catching up.)

    • pubkeeper

      Sounds like his contract was up, Joseph was looking at hiring the QB coach as our OC and the faders didn’t want to lose him so they promoted him and let Musgrave go.

      • that’s about what I figured, thanks. Well, I’ll take him! He did some pretty good work with that Carr fellow too it seems.

    • The Color Orange

      If you want to go into the mind of a Raiders fan (which is probably not a good idea), here is an explanation of why they hated Musgrave. https://justblogbaby.com/2016/01/04/oakland-raiders-2015-books-whats-next/amp/2/

      • I’m afraid… to read that πŸ˜‰ but will do so later — thanks!

        • The Color Orange

          The Cliff’s Notes version: they got tired of watching run for 3 yards on first down, run for 0 yards on second down, ineffectual screen pass on third down. Now, that was written before last season, but from what I am gathering from message boards, utterly predictable and boring playcalling is the problem.

          • That didn’t seem to be the case this season, but what do I know – I’m not a Raiders fan. πŸ˜‰

    • GrizzlyB

      Probably because their offense went down the can when they lost a mediocre QB in Carr. Also, he got hurt on a strange call to throw on 3rd and 19 when up big late against the Colts (although I think that’s a situation where the HC decides, maybe not the play itself, but what sort of approach the offense will take (run/pass/screen/etc.)).

  • Also, I salute this now — he seems a good dude and this is also a historic hire for our franchise (not that this a reason to hire him, but since he’s hired it’s something we can honor and salute).

  • RSH, Esq.
  • From the possibility of Todd Downing to two recycled OCs:
    https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/819269258777677829

    • RSH, Esq.

      And how do we know that Downing will be some world-beater? Let’s at least play a couple of meaningless preseason games before we declare the Downings of the world as the next Don Coryell or Bill Walsh, and relegate Mike McCoy, who was a steady hand in Denver, to the confines of a dump.

      • ElwayIsGod7

        Yeah I feel like we all really liked McCoy when he was here.

        • Offense improved when he left and Gase took over.

          • ElwayIsGod7

            If the standard of offensive performance is the 2013 Broncos Offense, than there is literally no one good enough to fill the position. Gase ain’t coming back to be OC, and PMFM isn’t coming back from the dead.

          • RSH, Esq.

            And right now, I think that I and most Broncos fans would kill for the 2012 offense.

          • PiperAR

            I’d settle for having a RT with the ability of Orlando Franklin.

          • Steven_Searls

            I don’t know. Alive Manning was blown out in SB XLVIII. Zombie Manning on the other hand came away with a ring for SB 50. Clearly Kubiak got the most out of a dead man.

          • Snipe

            I can’t give Gase credit for that without knowing how much of that was playcalling at the line by Manning. Over the years, Manning made a lot of OC look like geniuses

        • G Mik

          Didn’t love him and partly because of the overtime fiasco. I thought he played a part in kneeling to find out he was planning the next few plays with manning when Foxy made the idiot decision to kneel.

          So my bad on McCoy. He’s a little too conservative for my tastes but with our Defense that might be the right choice. And I’m not saying he’s totally conservative but as others have pointed out our O was better under Gase.

      • one of my favorite screenwriter quotes ever (and it applies to ME as much as anyone else here:) http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-nobody-knows-anything-william-goldman-72869.jpg

        • T. Jensen

          I prefer “If there’s rocks ahead we’ll all be dead”

        • Yahmule

          We just cast Vance Joseph as Ralph, but he’s getting as much respect as Piggy.

          • Haha, you’re thinking of William Golding, not Screenwriter/novelist William Goldman πŸ˜‰ But I still like the analogy.

          • Yahmule

            Aw man, I felt smart for a second.

          • PiperAR

            Not to be confused with William GOLDBERG, pushed due to impressive physique, lack of wrestling ability hid behind 50 squash matches, and mike skills as unimpressive as his physique was awesome.

          • Yahmule

            And a Falcon for half a minute.

            EDIT: Hey, three years and one start. Not too shabby.

          • PiperAR

            And that if I recall right is ACTIVE ROSTER, no practice squad time for Goldberg. Although I don’t remember if there were practice squads in the early/mid 90s.

        • Steven_Searls

          I just don’t know about that.

      • I don’t know anything about Downing really, but we all know about Musgrave and McCoy. I wasn’t a fan of McCoy at all when he was here and the offense performed far better under Gase when McCoy left to SD. My choice would be Mike McDaniel currently on Falcons staff.

        • PiperAR

          By ‘rapid development’, do you mean total improvement over 3 years in the NFL? Do you mean improvement over 1 year, 2014 vs 2015 or 2015 vs 2016? Do you mean improvement over the course of a single season, game 1 to game 16?
          I just don’t get the opinion that Trevor Siemian 2016 is all that Trevor Siemian can possibly ever be, there just is no further potential there to tap.

    • Tyler

      Nothing wrong with recycled coordinators, worked out well with Wade Phillips. I do have concerns over our young QBs having to spend their time learning a new offense instead of focusing on their play.

      • ElwayIsGod7

        That’s where McCoy gives me the warm & fuzzies. McCoy seemed to be good at adapting to his players.

        • T. Jensen

          I’m not 100% sure about that – it seems to me he had the most success (in denver) when he said F it and let Tebow and Manning do their thing. Now that might be him adapting but I kind of thought it was him giving up on his own scheme.

        • Snipe

          McCoy will bring Philip Rivers on board and we will kick ass

          • drewthorn

            Holy hell that’d be hilarious. I mean, shit, it’s only been a couple years now that I’m able to utter “Phillip Rivers” without my face twisting into an ugly smear.

      • RSH, Esq.

        For all we know playing in McCoy’s version of the Erhardt-Perkins scheme may further the development of Paxton Lynch. It might not. Whoever the offensive coordinator is, how the offense changes and the quarterbacks develop, will be fascinating to watch.

      • drewthorn

        It could also benefit Lynch if an unsustainable offensive compromise is NOT fashioned to help him put off learning vital NFL QB skills until the cause is largely hopeless.

  • OT but our (very polite, really) discussions about coaches this week brought me in mind of this for some reason:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y πŸ˜‰ “Not necessarily, I could be arguing in my spare time.”

    • yikes, sorry that video preview window opened so large for some reason!

    • Rhett Rothberg

      excellent…

  • RSH, Esq.
    • GrizzlyB

      Although the total numbers were bad, at least situationally, Miami’s defense did well last year (specifically red zone TD% and 3rd down %).

  • RSH, Esq.

    If Joseph’s hire works out like Tomlin and McCarthy, then Elway truly is a magician.

    https://twitter.com/TroyRenck/status/819296897248673797

    • InSiemianWeTrust

      2 HCs with HOF QBs…

      Will be significantly harder with our lot.

      • InSiemianWeTrust

        I wonder how much playcalling is factoring in here.

        For example, we all know Kubes called plays, but I’m not really sure what the status is around the league. I believe Josh McD calls the offensive plays as well.

        What method do McCarthy and Tomlin subscribe to?

        Did Vance want to call defensive plays, which made Wade redundant in his mind?

        • pubkeeper

          Of the 8 teams left in the playoffs, only McCarthy calls plays.

          • InSiemianWeTrust

            Well… that may say something.

        • GrizzlyB

          McCarthy has called plays for most of his tenure. I think he gave it up at the beginning of last season, then took it back midway.

          Tomlin doesn’t call shit AFAIK.

          • InSiemianWeTrust

            Tomlin is too busy anticipating the media capturing a hidden smirk.

          • GrizzlyB

            He also doesn’t want to miss it when one of his guys takes a cheap shot at an opponent’s head.

    • Tyler

      Is McCarthy even any good? I’ve always considered him just the lucky recipient of Favre/Rodgers

      • RSH, Esq.

        The Packers were 4-12 the year prior to McCarthy’s hire.

        • Tyler

          The Broncos were 4-12 the year prior to Fox’s hire. Doesn’t make him anything special as a coach.

          • RSH, Esq.

            Fox has never won a Super Bowl. McCarthy has won a Super Bowl in Green Bay.

          • Tyler

            Sure with Aaron Rodgers as his QB. If Fox is good enough to be a field goal away from winning the Super Bowl with Jake Delhomme as his QB I suspect he’s good enough to win a Superbowl with Aaron Rodgers as his QB.

            Which goes back to my original point/opinion that McCarthy is just the lucky recipient of Aaron Rodgers.

          • RSH, Esq.

            You just stated that Fox is not special as a coach. I am a bit confused here. What makes a coach special in your eyes then?

          • Tyler

            A coach who can get above average performance from average players. The Harbaughs come to mind. I don’t put much stock in a single Super Bowl win from a coach working with a future Hall of Fame QB.

          • RSH, Esq.

            So is Wade a good coach? He had two, maybe four Hall of Famers on his defense the past two seasons.

          • FarAwayBroncoFan

            Fox was exactly what we needed then. And Manning, of course.

      • PiperAR

        Would Rodgers be Rodgers without McCarthy? I watched the 2009 game against Minnesota, Bret Favre against his old team, and Rodgers sucked ass.

        • InSiemianWeTrust

          Still pretty early in his playing career..

          • PiperAR

            He spent 2005-07 on the bench behind Favre and was starting in his second season. Anyway, what I mean is, would Rodgers be a better QB, a worse QB, or pretty much the same if he played for a different HC. Does McCarthy benefit from Rodgers or does Rodgers benefit from McCarthy?

      • Andrew

        He has a good track record but I hate how conservative he is had multiple chances to put Seattle away in the NFC title game a few years ago before the onside kick debacle.

  • The Color Orange

    Looks like the Rams might be trying the innovative young offensive coach paired with Wade Phillips model. We’ll see how it works out there.

    https://twitter.com/MikeKlis/status/819285171346227203

    • RSH, Esq.

      I really hope Wade stays just so all of this speculation and hand-wringing can be proven false.

      • ElwayIsGod7

        I love when twitter is wrong. Nothing’s official till JE says it is.

      • PiperAR

        That’s a good reason in and of itself.

  • GrizzlyB

    https://twitter.com/Jeff_Legwold/status/819299779800875017

    Hearing on radio that McCoy is all but hired. Nothing as concrete for DC or STC.

    • InSiemianWeTrust

      Would love to hear Rico state his case.

      For Oline coach.

    • Yahmule

      If he could rework the offense to win games with Tebow, Lynch should be a piece of cake.

  • Any announcement on intro. presser?

    • Clifton Jackman

      I think they need to do these after they’ve tossed a few down at the Steak Restaurant.

    • GrizzlyB

      Tomorrow at noon.

  • PiperAR

    As a first time head coach, coordinators are going to be very important. McCoy seems solid but not spectacular. My enthusiasm for Musgrave cooled when I looked it up and he’s been around with several teams, both as OC and QB coach. Good coordinators usually stay coordinators and don’t get demoted to position coach. If that’s the route to take, Greg Knapp is already in house and knows Siemian and Lynch. I’m more interested in McDaniel, someone fresher than McCoy or Musgrave. But I can see having an experienced OC to help out a first time head coach.
    That said, retaining Wade for at least one more year makes sense. If Vance wants to call plays on defense, that’s fine, but he can wait on that for now. And promise Wood that he’ll be DC when Wade leaves. It’s possible that VJ wants Wade back, and Elway wants Wade back, but both sides aren’t (yet) able to come to an agreement. It can’t just be assumed that impasse rests fully on Elway’s shoulders. For all we know, Wade wants a 3 year contract but can’t promise that he won’t think about retiring after next season.

    • BlackKnigh

      Retaining Wade for at least 1 more year does make a lot of sense. If VJ’s focus is going to be largely on rebuilding the offense and being the HC – IMO – he needs to be able to leave the defense in the hands of the guy who has lead this defense the last 2 years. Joseph is a first time HC. He has enough on his hands learning the position. Plus Woods is the coach of the “no fly zone” secondary. Leave him there.
      OC – there are several who could do that – including Weisenhut (sp?) who gave Denver fits in the 2005 playoffs.

  • RSH, Esq.
    • SterlingMalloryArcher

      “Leader of men.” Still nobody raving about football acumen.

      • Nobody?
        –> The secondary Joseph guided in Cincinnati gave the Broncos fits in 2014, when the Bengals defeated Denver 37-28. Bengals defensive backs intercepted Peyton Manning four times during that Monday night game, including a game-sealing 30-yard pick-six from Dre Kirkpatrick.

        That performance was one reason why Gase, the Broncos’ offensive coordinator at the time, brought Joseph aboard to run the Dolphins’ defense last year.

        “Going against him over the last few years, he was probably the one guy that would drive me nuts,” Gase said during the 2016 offseason. “I know he gave us tons of fits when we played him when we were in Houston. And then two years ago when he was in Cincinnati and we were in Denver, it was a tough matchup.

        “His knowledge of defense and what he brings to the table and his ability to really go after an offense, as far as really teaching his guys what’s going on, it’s very impressive.”

        Joseph brought his takeaway touch to Miami last year, as the Dolphins increased their turnovers forced by 56 percent, going from 1.0 per game in 2015 to 1.56 last year. Miami also generated more pressure, improving from 89 quarterback hits to 96, and forced twice as many fumbles, improving from just eight forced fumbles in 2015 to 16 last year.<–
        http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-and-blogs/article-1/Broncos-appoint-Vance-Joseph-a-leader-of-men-as-new-head-coach/4ee40805-49a7-444f-abf5-719683f494d7

        • Some idiot named Belichick:
          –>Joseph’s work also caught the eye of Patriots head coach Bill Belichick, who saw Joseph’s imprint on Miami’s defense all the way back in Week 1, when the Dolphins held the Seahawks to 12 points and generated a pair of takeaways in a 12-10 Miami loss at Seattle.

          Joseph’s ability to use a variety of tactics to generate pressure jumped off the film.

          “We watch smart coaches,” Belichick said during the 2016 season. “Vance came from Cincinnati, which there are some elements to some of the things that Cincinnati does there with the linebackers up at the line of scrimmage. There [are], again, some secondary pressures, some blitz-zone.” <–

        • SterlingMalloryArcher

          So does the DB coach call the coverages in Cincinnati? That would be unusual. Still, this is refreshing. I’m starting to puke in my mouth a little whenever I hear “leader of men.”

          • It’s certainly a John Wayne-esque cliche that’s for sure, phrased goofy πŸ˜‰ but I get what they mean, it’s just macho shorthand for “someone who can manage a lot of personalities and get them all in a row”

          • SterlingMalloryArcher

            I’m a little like Rhett in that I like the smartest man calling the shots, so if I was hearing “intelligence” as often as I’m hearing “leadership,” I would be more comfortable. I’m not opposed to the decision, though. Shanahan just seemed to fill an obvious void and as I’ve state before, we’d be done wondering about the offense if he was the guy. Now we’ve got a head coach, but we’re still wondering what’s going to happen with the offense.

          • Yahmule

            Belichick called him smart and the praise of Gase was mainly for his plays.

          • SterlingMalloryArcher

            I’m still confused by Joseph calling defensive plays in Cincinnati as a position coach. Did he always call the plays there?

          • Yahmule

            I don’t recall anyone but you throwing that red herring out there. Can you point that post out to me?

          • SterlingMalloryArcher

            Maybe I’m reading too much into Gase’s quote. “Going against him over the last few years, he was probably the one guy that would drive me nuts.” How does an opposing position coach drive an offensive play caller nuts? I assumed he meant the defensive looks/calls were challenging, but that would generally be due to the alignment and assignment, not due to techniques taught to a particular position group.

          • GrizzlyB

            Why is Shanahan this brilliant mind who would put all of our offensive woes to rest? No doubt Atlanta had the best offense this year, but for his OC career, he’s ranked ~10th average in yards, ~19th average in points (and most of that was under head coaches who are known to run their own offenses, in Kubiak and his dad). This season was great, but it’s still only one year.

          • SterlingMalloryArcher

            9 seasons as an OC, 2008-20016. Offensive ranks (yardage):

            Houston: 2008-3rd; 2009-4th;
            Washington: 2010-18th; 2011-16th; 2012-5th; 2013-9th;
            Cleveland: 2014-23rd;
            Atlanta: 2015-7th; 2016-2nd

            6 times top 10; 4 times top 5.

            It’s a pretty solid track record.

          • PiperAR

            What are the numbers for scoring? The 2008 Broncos had the “Number Two” offense, but moving the ball between the 20s is meaningless unless the ball crosses the plane of the end zone or is kicked through the uprights. In regard to scoring actual points, the 2008 Broncos were like 16th. If choosing one metric to evaluate performance, I think scoring, not yardage, is the one to pick.

          • SterlingMalloryArcher

            The convention disagrees, as “#1 offense” always refers to the number one offense in terms of yardage, and we use the qualifier “scoring offense” when talking about points scored. It’s probably because offensive points scored is a harder stat to find because total points scored includes points scored by defense and special teams. I don’t have time right now to look up each year’s scoring and then subtract each defensive and special teams TDs by sorting through every box score for the last 9 seasons for every team in the league, which is what you’d need to do to determine where his offenses ranked in scoring. Nevertheless, Kyle Shanahan has had tremendous success as an offensive coordinator which is the reason he’s getting interviews to be a head coach. Is your position that he has not excelled as an OC? I think most NFL executives and coaches would disagree with you.

          • Yahmule

            I think his position is that the scheme we’ve been running has always had trouble in the red zone unless the personnel is stellar and Kyle’s offense may have similar issues. Maybe John is looking to transition to the type of offense that better matches the defensive mentality.

          • SterlingMalloryArcher

            I agree, though, that points are a better indicator since they certainly have more impact on the game than yards. So I looked it up, and without accounting for defensive and special teams TDs, they are less impressive than the yardage rankings. Here they are: 17, 10, 25, 26, 4, 23, 27, 21, 1. A single TD (7 points) results in a .44 point per game swing, which can move a team up or down 2 to 3 spots in the rankings, so defensive and special teams scoring can really influence the final results.

          • Yahmule

            The two Broncos Joseph most reminds me of are Gary Kubiak and Tom Jackson. He has Kubiak’s reputation as an effective teacher, but he’s also known as good motivator.

        • Snatch Mouth

          Those are very likeable numbers and I remember that s***** Cincinnati game all too well

    • Too much “leader of men” narrative already. I’m guessing Kubes gave Elway his thoughts on Kyle Shanahan already and that contributed to the decision to hire Jospeh over KS. Kubiak picked Rico over Shanahan as OC in 2014, likely out of loyalty since Kyle once left him to go to Wash.

    • Yahmule

      That’s the second quote from Kubiak that makes me think Joseph is the kind of coach who will get in a player’s face if they’re not getting the job done. Fox and Kubiak might be a little more passive from a personality standpoint and John has said enough to make me think he wants someone who demands more accountability.

  • Clifton Jackman

    This does not feel like a step forward. At most this is a lateral move that may pay dividends down the road but not this year and probably not next. Hiring a Defensive HC when you literally have zero (okay, not zero, hello run defense) issues on the defensive side of the football and you’re not retaining the architect of said defense. What does that mean for the DL and Gotsis development? There doesn’t seem to be any clear direction going forward on the Offensive side. If he’s going to be interviewing OC’s, than he’s neither tied to an offensive scheme or the development of either QB. Thats great, but that means we don’t know where we are in either Trevor Simian’s or Paxton Lynch’s development. McCoy runs an entirely different system which bodes well for Trevor since we’ve all heard about his ability to translate classroom concepts to the field, but that means we are reseting the clock on Lynch. If we go with Musgrove, there is some familiarity for both, but not nearly the seamless transition that we all hoped for. Bottom line is that this means that Elway may have found the Leader he wants to run the team that can be a “Leader of Men” but in the short-term, this year feels like another transition year and another year that we lose with all of this defensive talent being together again.

    • BlackKnigh

      You make some good points. However – thinking back to when Shanny – an OC himself – first coached the Broncos – he first went to shore up the defense. And he continued to do that when he brought over those 2 DL guys from KC. I hope that Joseph keeps Wade at DC and works to get an OC to give a real boost to the offense plus an OL coach to shore that up. That VJ has been a QB and RB helps him in this.
      I am optimistic. I don’t think he will make the same mistakes that McJedi did in Denver.

      • Clifton Jackman

        I don’t think he will either. For one, he won’t be given the carte blanche the McDaniels was given. For another, His mentors include Kubiak and Wade Phillips, so we know his pedigree is one that Elway is partial too and probably helped seal the deal. However, it still leaves the gaping void that was created with Kubiaks departure and has created some ripples with unsettled future of Wade Phillips. Such is life though and i’m done complaining about the Defense. As always, we’ll trust in JMFE, and march forward to his vision. It has resulted in 4 AFCW titles, 2 SuperBowls, 1 SB Trophy, and 2 Giant Ass Numbers to go with the trophy.

  • Mark

    Have to say I agree with The Ringer. There must be a really compelling reason the Broncos went with Joseph. Look forward to seeing how it all comes together.

    https://theringer.com/hiring-vance-joseph-brings-even-more-uncertainty-to-the-broncos-a4e4e671fc87#.nj2cd3n1i

  • Snatch Mouth

    -I’m thinking that John Elway thought he let one get away when he didn’t hire him two years ago and he’s damn lucky to have the chance to rehire in this round. There’s definitely something that he knows that we all don’t and this trait and skill of being a leader of men and getting the absolute most out of his players is very important because a lot of the times in the press conferences with Gary Kubiak you kept hearing them say that it’s different now about what head coach has to do with controlling the players. There is some history out there that Vance helped keep the CU buffaloes together as he was their backup quarterback when the players were going to pieces in the locker-room cancer style. I think this year was a big challenge with the personalities on our team with the absence of Peyton Manning excuse me, Payton Mother Fuckin’ Manning, So with open arms I must say welcome Vance Joseph to the Denver Broncos!

    PS get ready for the entire universe to confuse him with Vance Johnson πŸ™‚

    • Yahmule

      I’ve already called him that today.

    • Sparks

      Hey, as long as they hire Mark Jackson as OC and Ricky Nattiel as DC, we’re in good hands. πŸ™‚

      • PiperAR

        Tony Lily to coach DBs. Nah.

        • VonSwenson

          That STILL hurts.

  • PiperAR

    If Wade retires or leaves for another job, the defense isn’t going to fall off a cliff. The 1986 Bears defense was better without Buddy Ryan than the Super Bowl winning 1985 unit.

    • Yahmule

      Their 88 defense was still beating the crap out of people.

  • Kyle Shanahan was the obvious coach – hotshot coordinator who can just leave the defense alone and fix the O, and his brand of O is very similar to what the previous coach did AND he has serious history with the franchise. Kyle is the easy answer.

    I’m glad we have a GM who has the courage to not take the easy answer. Elway is taking some risk here – if VJ flops, he’s culpable. If he hired Kyle and he flopped, Elway would have cover because it would have been so easy to support the move.

  • RSH, Esq.
  • Rhett Rothberg
  • Yahmule
    • InSiemianWeTrust

      “He’s tremendous,” said Broncos coach Gary Kubiak. β€œWhen I came here, one of my very close friends in this business β€” he’s a defensive coordinator in Miami (Vance Joseph) and a really good coach β€” told me, β€˜You go get this guy.’ I didn’t know Joe. Boy, was he right. He’s been special.”

      Guess Kubes, Woods
      and Vance go back a while as well. Additional insight if Wade gets edged out.

      • So it seems this was likely plotted by Elway and Kubes a while ago. I don’t think Shanahan ever had a shot.

        • InSiemianWeTrust

          I wouldn’t go that far. The story previously was just that Vance knew Wade previously. If we now know that Woods and Vance also were close already, it somewhat could help explain why Wade was let go (hopefully he won’t be!). As opposed to Vance knowing Wade, and canning him for an unfamiliar coach.

  • RSH, Esq.
  • drewthorn

    So again, at the end of the day, it turned out that the idiot Mike Klis was packing the goods while the titans of truth and virtue Adam Schefter, D-Mac, and the legendary Les Shapiro were tossing the pasta. Klis gets a nod for valor, too, the way he ignored those puppet strings to take shots at this decision in advance.

    • Clifton Jackman

      Mike Klis also tossed out McDaniels; so yes when fling enough shit; you’re bound to hit the walls.

      • drewthorn

        I read a lot of that around here. That is, that his J McD advocacy is his unforgivable sin. It’s exceptionally ironic if you consider that the precursor to this site was IAOFM, which was a site written by guys who made their bones fighting the reactionary vitriol spawned by that ill fated Broncos adventure.

        Lots of otherwise smart and reasonable people could see potential upside in McD.

        • Clifton Jackman

          Josh McDaniels earned the Vitriol and disdain. He may have learned his lesson and turn out as a good Head Coach, but his stay left a permanent and indelible bad taste on this franchise. Any thought that we would entertain him back here would be ludicrous and would invite the wrath of the entire fanbase. The entire purpose of bringing it up was to stir the pot and generate clicks, which is the lowest form of news is nothing more than click-baiting.

          • PiperAR

            Earned vitriol? The mob had grabbed pitchforks and torches the second he replaced the long snapper, even though 50% of the mob didn’t know what a LS is and 95% didn’t know the name of the old one. Permanent stain? The only thing remaining from McD is Thomas and the draft pick that became Von Miller. I don’t defend McD so much as try to judge him within a fair context. But anything not negative about McD gets Yahmule riled up, so I’ll drop it.

          • Clifton Jackman

            Fair Context is that he has been an abject failure anywhere but New England. There he has been just fine.

          • PiperAR

            Sure. What I mean is, there were things beyond the control of any head coach, even a Bill Walsh. So at the risk of getting Yahmule going:
            McD took over a depleted roster, something like 15 or 20 Broncos from 2008 failed to make any team’s roster in 2009.
            The 2009 draft was historically terrible.
            The only defensive player that could smell a QB was out all of 2010.
            Other things get blown out of proportion like:
            Trading two 3rd round picks for the last pick of the second, used on Richard Quinn, and a 4th used on David Burton. Had the original picks been kept, they may well have been used on Richard Quinn and David Burton.
            Trading away the third most popular RB in Bronco history behind TD and Sammy Winder despite rushing for less than 400 yards as a Bronco.
            Trading away a ‘star’ WR with personality disorder.
            Trading away a ‘star’ tight end who made less impact less often than Julius Thomas.
            Some positives get ignored like leaving Elway some players to build around like Knoshon Moreno, Zane Beatles, DT, Eric Decker, or that his ‘draft busts’ that Elway eventually replaced like Robert Quinn and Darcel McBath managed to make the roster on other teams.
            Yeah, that kind of context.

          • drewthorn

            Got it. I thought you were referencing his generally soft treatment of McD when he was here.

            That tweet was silly, no doubt. It wasn’t particularly unique in that regard, though.

    • The Color Orange

      For the millionth time, Klis is money on facts. It’s his football analysis that sucks. Seriously, what is so hard to grasp about this concept?

      • drewthorn

        I don’t know. People like to justify the baseless eviseration of celebs/athletes as a byproduct of their big salaries and fame. Klis probably drives a pre-owned Honda, he is most remarkable for his lack of mean-spiritedness, yet just a few days ago he was yet again the punk in a twitter shitstorm where people entertained themselves at his expense.

        I like standing up for people like that.

        Show me one objective truth about the game of football– outside the rules of the game– and I’ll concede that we can quantify dumb and smart.

        • LH Almeida

          You mean objective truth in rules like “what a catch consists of”?

    • SterlingMalloryArcher

      Of course here was Klis’s take on Joseph before he was hired:

      https://twitter.com/MikeKlis/status/818161561168551936

      So, like I always say, when Klis reports facts: good. When Klis offers analysis: bad.

      • drewthorn

        Sort of my point, though. That’s a dangerous tweet for a puppet to make. At the very least, quite ill advised and counterproductive, especially knowing as he did what was coming.

        • SterlingMalloryArcher

          I don’t usually criticize his opinions because they are too team friendly. I just think that while he’s generally plugged into the goings on, he is terrible at understanding that actual game of football. He knows who the team is hiring/signing/cutting; he knows almost nothing as to how to win a football game.

          • drewthorn

            Even the best of them (Andy Benoit, Mike Tanier) are wrong at least half the time.

            Klis will never be known for his insight, but I kind of like that about him. I was never much fond of Schefter’s reportatorials when he was doing the Broncos beat. Klis generally makes his opinions discernible from his news, which is sort of refreshing these days. I respect that.

        • Rhett Rothberg

          Ok, I can’t resist. What is the danger?

          • drewthorn

            The insinuation is always that Klis serves the Denver Broncos. Being publicly critical of your master is generally not a winning strategy.

      • Jeremy

        That point has been made by many other people here including myself. I think it’s completely fair to bring up. What’s the issue with that facts he was stating?

    • GrizzlyB

      Speaking of steaming-hot Klis takes, here’s one in which he claims that running Tom Brady’s offense would be a fit for known simpleton and inaccurate passer Paxton Lynch:

      https://twitter.com/MikeKlis/status/819323753159151622

      • drewthorn

        Honest question: Is the NE offense more complicated?

        • GrizzlyB

          I think that, in terms of actually executing the plays (i.e. throwing the ball), it’s pretty simple, but its plays are concepts based mostly on option routes determined by how the defense is lined up, as opposed to a west coast playcall, which says exactly what every player is going to do. So the QB has to identify the defensive coverage very quickly presnap and read it postsnap, and be on the exact same page as his receivers. And be accurate on the fifty 4-yard throws he’ll be making. I don’t know what kind of offense Lynch would excel in, but I don’t think it’s that one.

          Of course, I don’t think McCoy’s offense, here or in San Diego, resembled New England’s that much (other than really base concepts), so there’s that.

      • InSiemianWeTrust

        Psh… the NE offense is just Edelman running option routes that run counter to the DB/LBs leverage. That and throwing jumpballs to a giant man-child.

        • Yahmule

          Gisele has consistently disputed the quick release. She’s either happy or loyal to a fault.

  • PiperAR

    Offseason checklist
    1. Force Gary out the door.
    2. Hire Vance Joseph over Kyle Shanahan
    3. Draft Dalvin Cook over Christian McCaffrey

    • Yahmule

      Check his basement for pods!

  • RSH, Esq.
  • RSH, Esq.
    • PiperAR

      I re-read Ted Bartlett’s Defensive Type Indicator article yesterday. It was written summer of 2013 during Wade’s time as DC in Houston. Ted listed Houston as a zone based (as opposed to man) coverage based (as opposed to blitzing, rushing five or more). It’s possible that Ted was mistaken about what Wade was doing in Houston, but I’m willing to believe that Wade had a better secondary for zone at the time. Wade may have called less blitzes in Houston, or he doesn’t call as many in Denver as we think and he just picks opportune times to blitz. Blitzing for the sake of blitzing or blitzing because you can’t get pressure with the front four tends not to work well, as Larry Coyer was telling me.

  • RSH, Esq.
  • WhoShotBobbyHumphrey

    https://youtu.be/FQ-4veiSBBg
    Did we get a leather wallet, when we were all expecting Hulk Hands?

  • Hank Mardukis

    I’m skeptical, hopefully Elway continues his successful ways.

  • I had no idea Kubiak was so close to Joseph, described in a quote below as one of his best friends in football. Learning the details now, it’s pretty apparent that Shanahan or Toub for that matter never really had a chance… Joseph was getting the job all along. We knew two yrs. ago that Kubes wanted him as DC, and while Shanahan was available to be OC Kubes instead, perhaps out of loyalty, went with Rico.

    • Andrew

      Wade leaving would be disappointing, but I do like what I’ve heard/read about Woods so far sounds like a really driven guy that consumes the film room and expects that of his players.

      • Orange_n_Blue_Kicks

        I know it’s the nature of the business, but Wade no longer has aspirations for a head coaching position. He created a dynamic defense, and judging from his comments it would seem he would have been content to finish out his career with the Broncos. Our defense has been something special the past few years. Maybe Woods can take it to the next level. But interjecting from my own life experience, new ideas & the ability to scheme outside the box are not attributes assigned solely to youth. I wonder if Wade is not retained if we can get lightning to strike twice for outstanding defensive coaching. And even if Woods is successful, how long Is he willing to stay as a Defensive Cordinator if the head coaching opportunities become available?

        • Kndh19

          I agree with you completely, great observations all around.

    • GrizzlyB
    • Kndh19

      Is elway or kubiak running this team?

      Maybe kubs can find us a right tackle

      • Elway of course, but bet on the fact they discussed Joseph and Shanahan as candidates and it seems clear who Kubes recommended as his top choice.

  • The Color Orange

    This is the guy we’re supposedly looking at to fix our offensive line. http://www.freep.com/story/sports/nfl/lions/2015/10/27/jeremiah-washburn-fired-detroit-lions/74672166/

    • Royalwithcheese

      Oh, and Miami’s offensive line was worse than Denver’s.

    • I’d be cool with keeping Knapp, his mostly positive rep precedes him. I’m agnostic on Studesville — results were poor this season but not sure how much he can be blamed for (CJ out for season, rookie backup, bad OL), and he too has a good rep, and some good success in past. (But also not exactly irreplaceable.)

  • This sure is a tumultuous time for followers of the AFC West.
    LA Chargers, here they come.
    https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/819376593734946816

  • Klis must be trying to make up with the team after crapping on Joseph all Sunday afternoon, ha.
    https://twitter.com/MikeKlis/status/819299485717250048

    • It’s a real Klisterfuck all right. πŸ˜‰

      • Snatch Mouth

        STFU Donnie!

  • VonSwenson

    The way I see this is, when we had the super offense, we fell short three years in a row, in embarrassing fashion. When we had the super defense, we won it all (even with a weak offense). So, defense is more important! Defense wins championships!

    So, getting a defense-oriented head coach is a good thing, compared to an offense-oriented one. Yes the offense needs fixing, but keeping up the strong defense is the key to continuing to win.

    • The Color Orange

      Wow, and here I was thinking that a coach who could fix the offense and leave Wade Phillips in charge of the defense would keep the defense strong. Silly me.

    • Snatch Mouth

      Youre on to something here

  • WhoShotBobbyHumphrey

    Weird Bronco day. I think there’s a real sense of uncertainty moving forward of what to expect out of our offense. If it’s anything like that flaming bag of dog shit that we saw last year, it will be very disheartening. One thing that should be pointed out is that Gary Kubiak was also supposed to be an offensive guru. We saw it firsthand when we won two Super Bowl’s, and we saw it 2014, in Baltimore. Kubes could really call plays, and develop Quarterbacks. Fact. Another fact is under Gary Kubiak, we have seen two of the most statistically, shitty offenses, in my recent Bronco memory (well 2012..) Obviously, a declining Peyton Manning, and a seventh round draft pick at quarterback, could have very well contributed to this. I was actually very pleased with how Kubiak brought Trevor Siemian along, but my point is, we should not assume that Shanahan was going to come to Denver, and fix the offense. His duties were going to be as a Head Coach, and potentially a play caller. There is so much that goes into being a head coach that we can’t even fathom. For all we know, Vance Johnson could be a way better head coach, than a Coordinator, and that is what Elway saw in him. “Leader of Men”. Was this overused today, or underused?

    • Snatch Mouth

      Im of the opinion our O was thinking way too much…how could it go anywhere but up? Never seen so many three and outs in my football watching life

      • WhoShotBobbyHumphrey

        If you swapped out our offensive players with Atlanta’s, you get a much different result. Outside of DT, and Sanders, our personnel was pretty shitty. That falls back on John, but when you are coming off a Super Bowl win, its not uncommon to go through a transition of talent, or lack there of.

      • drewthorn

        I came to be more optimistic if they were staring down a 3rd and 8 than 3rd and 1, or if they were 1st and 10 on the 25 rather than 1st and goal.

        Weird year all around. Who knows how much better they’d have looked if they just converted 75% of all the short yardage situations they blew.

        • BlackKnigh

          I think we can say with confidence that if the Broncos would have converted 75% of all the short yardage situations they blew – they would have won at least 2 more games.

        • ohiobronco

          Most frustrating moment of the season was when they took a penalty in KC to get 2nd and 6 rather than 3rd and 1. Then we blinked and it was 3rd and 14.

  • RSH, Esq.
  • Snatch Mouth

    Basically Vance for the last three years has been the D coordinator for the teams with most take aways and now he has our squad…what if we start stomping people 40-7!?

    • WhoShotBobbyHumphrey

      That’s the spirit!

    • Paul Guenther was the coordinator for his two years in Cincy and Wade for his last yr. in Houston.

      • Snatch Mouth

        Miami and Cincinnati are the reference encyclopedia Rico….in Cin he’s the DB’s coach…see you the next time you have a correction for me…

  • drewthorn

    Joseph’s communication skills and leadership qualities don’t seem to spring from an abundance of charisma.

    • Agreed he seems rather shy and quiet in the interviews I’ve watched, maybe a different guy m where the camera is off.

    • Yahmule

      Have you seen him interacting with people outside of a press conference?

      • drewthorn

        No. Just an observation.

  • Kndh19

    Remember when elway signed terrible by all measures right tackle Donald Stephenson? This could be the same kind of deal. We can question things and not blindly say tyje.

  • LH Almeida

    I haven’t been posting much here, but I needed to say it’s nice to have a place where the comments aren’t toxic…